Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architecture? (Fwd: Errata #5933 for RFC8200)

Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Fri, 28 February 2020 17:20 UTC

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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:19:48 -0500
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To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Joseph Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>, Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>, architecture-discuss@iab.org, Internet Area <int-area@ietf.org>, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/HvCNligJzlBGY-HfgUiIr_rsXo8>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architecture? (Fwd: Errata #5933 for RFC8200)
Precedence: list

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 11:14 AM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:32 AM Phillip Hallam-Baker
> <phill@hallambaker.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:36 PM Joseph Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker <
> phill@hallambaker.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> IP end to end does not mean the IP address is constant end to end. It
> never has meant that and never will.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Actually, that's the only thing it ever meant and always will. When
> addresses change, *by definition*, the*ends* change (and yes, that's what
> NATs do - they create end-to-end CONTENT transfer over separate end-to-end
> Internets).
> >>
> >>
> >> By whose definition? Not by mine.
> >>
> >>
> >> I’d start with RFCs 791 and 1122, but there’s also the pseudo header in
> RFC 793, to be very specific.
> >>
> >> TCP and TLS give me a reliable end-to-end stream. The fact that the IP
> address is exposed is merely an unfortunate defect in the legacy APIs.
> >>
> >> As the application layer designer, I am the customer here. I do not
> care about the IP address.
> >>
> >>
> >> Hmmm. By what value do you call  TCP endpoint?
> >>
> >> You must have magic sockets that don’t actually refer to IP addresses.
> >
> >
> > I have a library that implements RFC6763. So my application code doesn't
> actually consider IP addresses.
> >
> It's great that _you_ have a solution, but not everyone does. The
> standard says that a TCP connection endpoint is defined by a 4-tuple
> of source address, destination address, source port, destination port.
> It is an invariant that we have forty years of operational experience
> with. If you think that design decision is obsolete or should be
> revisited, then by all means propose an alternative in tsvwg.
>
> Tom
>

That is a TCP connection. Applications don't deal in TCP connections, they
deal in sockets.

Its called abstraction. All that complexity belongs in a box that the
application programmer doesn't need to open.

Now current practice is that people use the gethostbyname() call to do DNS
resolution and so they end up being unable to make use of DNS properly. But
that is a problem with the 40 year old legacy API which can be changed or
circumvented entirely

RFC6763 is what the application layer should use.

[arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architecture?… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Tom Herbert
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Phillip Hallam-Baker
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Robert Raszuk
Re: [arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architect… Bernard Aboba
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Tom Herbert
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joe Touch
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joe Touch
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joe Touch
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Tom Herbert
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joe Touch
Re: [arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architect… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joe Touch
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Robert Raszuk
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joe Touch
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Robert Raszuk
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Robert Raszuk
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joe Touch
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Mark Andrews
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Robert Raszuk
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Phillip Hallam-Baker
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Phillip Hallam-Baker
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Tom Herbert
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Christian Huitema
Re: [arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architect… Bernard Aboba
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architect… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Phillip Hallam-Baker
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Tom Herbert
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Dino Farinacci
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Tom Herbert
Re: [arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architect… Bernard Aboba
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joseph Touch
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joseph Touch
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joseph Touch
Re: [arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architect… Fernando Gont
[arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architecture?… Guntur Wiseno Putra
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Robert Raszuk
[arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architecture?… Guntur Wiseno Putra
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Phillip Hallam-Baker
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Tom Herbert
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Phillip Hallam-Baker
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Tom Herbert
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joseph Touch
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joseph Touch
Re: [arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architect… Andrew Alston
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Joseph Touch
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Andrew Alston
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
Re: [arch-d] [Int-area] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P… Fernando Gont
[arch-d] Is IPv6 End-to-End? R.I.P. Architecture?… Guntur Wiseno Putra