Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure
Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org> Sun, 28 March 2010 18:13 UTC
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Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 11:13:40 -0700
From: Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org>
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Cc: Codec WG <codec@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure
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On 03/28/2010 10:13 AM, Stephan Wenger wrote: > Hi Marc, all, > > The article you linked is IMO a useful thing to read for those who do not > know how to study patents. But, please understand, it is really 101 level. > There are many, many subtleties when interpreting claim language, and this > is an ever-evolving field, just as technical codec design is, > > The article is written from an US law perspective, but that's IMHO alright, > considering where the majority of the patent litigation is ongoing today. > The business situation addressed is clearly that of an open source > developer, not that of a multi-national corporation, but you indicated that > in your posting already. > > Commenting on your own post, there are two key problems in your logic about > the non-issue of willful infringement (which many people inadequately > circumscribe as "triple damages"--triple damages are a consequence of > willful infringement, but not the root cause.) > > The first flaw, as I perceive it, is that your (and your employer's) > exposure to the patent is not restricted to your work in this working group. > It may come haunt you on past and future projects, and on anything you are > doing in parallel with the work here, as well. That may be a non-issue if > the work in the codec WG is a hobby of yours, but if you are a codec > professional, it is something to consider. Well, this is not new for professional developers. E.g. as a former Java Licensee, I cannot contribute to the Apache Harmony project. C'est la vie. > > Second, there is also the issue of statuary rights under patent law. > Especially in the open source community, but also in other standardization > and implementation circles, individuals tend to worry mostly about patent > rights being violated by "implementing". This corresponds to the "make" > category in patent law. However, the (US-) patent law also allows to > exclude others from the "use" and "sell" of a patented invention (the > formulation in other jurisdictions vary, but are generally similarly wide as > in the US). Arguably, if your employer (through your participation here) > learns of a patent today, and your employer is currently selling products > containing another codec that is encumbered by the patent right, and a bunch > of other conditions are met, then willful infringement may trigger. > > The business decision to study patents is, of course, up to you (and > possibly to your employer). If your goal is the design of a freely > practicable codec, it could be helpful to do so. My guess is, though, that > the risk/benefit equation is very different between different employers, > even if they are of similar size. That's why I'm arguing so strongly to > give people a chance stay ignorant and out of patent discussions. I think that there is a problem here. Let's say that the CODEC's codec algorithm uses a specific technique, let's call it "T". I then discover that T is patented. I can (and will) fill a third party IPR disclosure. People in the mailing-list will know about this but cannot discuss it, according to what you are saying. OK, then I propose a modification to the specification to replace T by T'. According to you I still cannot discuss why T' is better than T, because it is not a technical argument. Let's say that people got a clue and decide to put T' in the specification instead of T. According to you we still cannot say in the specification that T' is here because even if T seems obvious (a common characteristic of all things patented) we cannot use it. Now 5 years from now, someone wanting to implement the specification has no idea why it is so complex, because the reason is not in the spec and not in the mailing-list archives. How is that not fundamentally broken? > > Stephan > > > > > On 3.28.2010 08:22 , "Marc Petit-Huguenin" <petithug@acm.org> wrote: > >> On 03/24/2010 06:58 PM, Stephan Wenger wrote: >>> Hi Rob, >>> >>> Wearing my ³technical advisor to the IESG on IPR matters² hat: >>> >>> I¹m commenting in this email only on the ³third party disclosure² >>> subject. I may comment on the other subject later, as, admittedly, they >>> are more murky. Phrasing a reply certainly requires more undistracted >>> time than I have now (sitting in the IETF77 plenary). >>> >>> I note that you have provided information of two patent applications >>> that have not been recited in Skype¹s declaration. Specifically, >>> neither the GB application, nor the PCT application, have been disclosed >>> by Skype. Nowhere in BCP 79 or in the IETF¹s current practice I find >>> language or common conduct indicating that, by disclosing one or more >>> patent family members, one has to infer that all patent family members >>> are disclosed. If you are aware of such language, I would appreciate a >>> pointer. >>> >>> In this light, I continue to believe that you were not within the >>> language, nor the spirit, of BCP 79 when you cited these patent numbers. >>> >>> Advisor hat off, private statement: >>> >>> Rob, you are a lawyer, and are listed in the IP law section of the CA >>> bar association. You are a professional in this field. Most of the >>> subscribers of this *technical* working group list are not. They may >>> not know what harm could befall them, and their employers, if they start >>> reading someone else¹s patents, and perhaps start commenting in public >>> on it. >> >> http://news.swpat.org/2010/03/transcript-tridgell-patents/ >> >> The arguments presented were for FOSS, but I am thinking that one argument in >> this presentation may apply to the CODEC work. >> >> My thinking is this: The goal of this WG, as described in the charter is to >> produce a RF codec. Producing a royalty-free codec means that each time a >> technique is used in the codec, it should be either covered by an expired >> patent; or have plenty of prior art anterior by at least one year to the >> oldest >> valid patent; or been so new that there is no patent; or been covered by a >> patent with a royalte-free license that apply to this work. If a non-expired >> patent without an RF license is found for the technique, then there is only >> one >> way to fix this: remove the technique from the codec and find another way. If >> the goal of this WG is really to produce a RF codec, then it does not matter >> if >> we discuss patent and prior art and so on in this mailing-list, because >> neither >> single or triple damages can apply, as any technique that could trigger either >> of them will be removed. >> >> Now finding a workaround for a technique that we cannot use is impossible >> without discussing it. If we want our best minds trying to find how to not >> employ a specific technique, then we have to explain why this specific >> technique >> cannot be used, and I do not see how to do this without discussing the patent >> in >> this mailing-list. In fact I think that each single line of the codec >> description should be annotated in some way with all the prior art, expired >> patent and so on all the way to the Sumerians to prove to everybody that there >> is no issue. (I suspect that the triple damage thing is used to frighten the >> very people that could really do harm a patent by finding a way to ignore it). >> >> The only possible collateral damage would be if a developer is reading this >> mailing-list and discover that a technique applies to its own code and thus >> will >> be eventually open to triple damages on its own code. I think that somebody >> like this should not be in this mailing-list in the first place. >> >> And, BTW, IANAL. > > -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Personal email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Professional email: petithug@acm.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Stephan Wenger
- [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Michael Ramalho (mramalho)
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Kevin P. Fleming
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Benjamin M. Schwartz
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Koen Vos
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Benjamin M. Schwartz
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Stephan Wenger
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure stephen botzko
- Re: [codec] Skype IPR disclosure Rob Glidden