Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https-05.txt
Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> Thu, 13 May 2021 07:51 UTC
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From: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 00:50:57 -0700
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To: Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>
Cc: Eric Orth <ericorth=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https-05.txt
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On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 9:33 PM Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com> wrote: > On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 7:14 PM Brian Dickson < > brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: > >> It is demonstrably more likely that a complex parser will have problems, >> than something that combines data from simple RRs in simple RRsets will >> have problems. >> (The history of SMTP is, I think, a good poster child for this, with MX, >> A, AAAA, plus DNSSEC and TLSA support in the clients, which are email >> transport things, not merely DNS things.) >> > > The SVCB parameters' wire format is an extremely simple TLV arrangement; I > don't think "a complex parser" is required. > This is an apples/oranges argument, the parsing complexity I'm referring to (I thought explicitly, but I guess that is too far up-thread) is the presentation (aka zone file) format. The initial opinions (not just mine) were that the format, while maybe familiar to HTTP implementers, is very un-DNS-like, and the proposition was that the complexity was not strictly necessary. While combining multiple simple records into a complex record, in wire format, would not be difficult, it is not what DNS authority servers do, and is not what resolvers do. But, the _wire format_ of the original proposed record is not at issue, and never has been, so I don't understand why you bring that up. > It's also far from a novel design for DNS; in fact, it's identical to the > widely implemented OPT RR RDATA format from 1999 [1][2]. > That is actually an interesting point, for one very important reason: NONE of the OPT RR elements are zone file constructs. They are all metadata, typically established by the configurations of various implementations of DNS clients and servers (including authority servers and resolvers). So, you are actually making the point for me, that the wire format of something that isn't a zone file component, can be complex and trivial to parse. We agree on this completely. The TLV aspect is well understood, and a component of many protocols (e.g. BGP, another protocol I'm actively involved in via the IDR WG). Having complex records in zone files is unwise, if it is not strictly required. The question was raised, as to whether that format is strictly required, and I think the consensus is that it is not. > > What you're describing here, an arrangement in which clients partition > RRSets into subsets and then reassemble bindings from those subsets, > strikes me as highly novel, in contrast, and somewhat more complex. > It is a simple table join using a single key. It was unabashedly ripped off from the RDBMS field of programming. Or actually COBOL, from the early 1980's. It's a hack, slightly clever maybe, but extremely simple and reliable. The requirement that each SvcParameter occur only once, is actually enforced directly via the 4-tuple uniquess criteria for DNS: owner, class, type, RDATA. If the RDATA consists of priority, enum, key, value pair, DNS enforces the uniqueness automatically. (This technically makes the semantic component of what would otherwise be a complex parser moot, and the syntactic part, the easy part, is all that needs to be implemented.) This also vastly simplifies the encoding/decoding of unknown RDATA, since the priority, enum, and key are numeric values of fixed size, leaving a single "value" component. The enumerator is the key (for the table join). The client does not need to check parameter uniqueness. It only needs to match up the enums to recreate the JSON of the objects in the array of structures (or regroup them into the OPT RR wire format if you prefer). This is the absolute simplest thing to code, and the absolute furthest thing from "novel". Its use as an encoding in DNS might be new, but it is the kind of thing that unit tests can handle trivially. So, to be clear, I'm only explaining the what and how, and maybe some parts of the why. I'm not in particular advocating strongly for using it, only presenting it as a viable option, for other folks to discuss the merits of. > > Perhaps complexity is subjective. The important thing is that the > standard be reasonably implementable. I hope that the list of published > implementations [3] will serve as convincing evidence that the current > draft is sufficient in that regard. > Implementable isn't the same as maintainable or simple to debug, or to confirm interoperability. This is particularly a concern across situations of zone file export, copy, and subsequent import on all of the other implementations. You may be underestimating the number of implementations. Switching to a zone file format that is simpler to parse would go a long way to improving those. Brian
- [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https-0… internet-drafts
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Petr Špaček
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tom
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- [DNSOP] ZONEMD was Re: [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ie… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… libor.peltan
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Vladimír Čunát
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] ZONEMD was Re: [Ext] I-D Action: draf… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… libor.peltan
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] ZONEMD was Re: [Ext] I-D Action: draf… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… libor.peltan
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tommy Pauly
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tommy Pauly
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tommy Pauly
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Martin Thomson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Martin Thomson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Martin Thomson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- [DNSOP] Sub-field encoding scheme discussion (pos… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz