Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https-05.txt
Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com> Thu, 13 May 2021 17:25 UTC
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From: Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 10:25:11 -0700
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To: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Cc: Eric Orth <ericorth=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https-05.txt
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On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 12:51 AM Brian Dickson < brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 9:33 PM Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 7:14 PM Brian Dickson < >> brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> It is demonstrably more likely that a complex parser will have problems, >>> than something that combines data from simple RRs in simple RRsets will >>> have problems. >>> (The history of SMTP is, I think, a good poster child for this, with MX, >>> A, AAAA, plus DNSSEC and TLSA support in the clients, which are email >>> transport things, not merely DNS things.) >>> >> >> The SVCB parameters' wire format is an extremely simple TLV arrangement; >> I don't think "a complex parser" is required. >> > > This is an apples/oranges argument, the parsing complexity I'm referring > to (I thought explicitly, but I guess that is too far up-thread) is the > presentation (aka zone file) format. > Ah, so you were comparing the difficulty of a complex parser (at the authority) to combining data from RRs (on the client). The initial opinions (not just mine) were that the format, while maybe > familiar to HTTP implementers, is very un-DNS-like, and the proposition was > that the complexity was not strictly necessary. > SVCB's key=value zone-file format is borrowed straight from DNS-SD (RFC 6763); it is not new to DNS users. While combining multiple simple records into a complex record, in wire > format, would not be difficult, it is not what DNS authority servers do, > and is not what resolvers do. > It is not, at present, what any components do, and the current draft is designed to keep it that way. > What you're describing here, an arrangement in which clients partition >> RRSets into subsets and then reassemble bindings from those subsets, >> strikes me as highly novel, in contrast, and somewhat more complex. >> > > It is a simple table join using a single key. It was unabashedly ripped > off from the RDBMS field of programming. Or actually COBOL, from the early > 1980's. It's a hack, slightly clever maybe, but extremely simple and > reliable. > The requirement that each SvcParameter occur only once, > This is not the current draft's requirement. The requirement is that each key appear only once, to avoid conflicting values. This also vastly simplifies the encoding/decoding of unknown RDATA, since > the priority, enum, and key are numeric values of fixed size, leaving a > single "value" component. > I don't see any simplification. The length of each value is explicit in the TLV, so unknown keys are equally straightforward to handle. > The enumerator is the key (for the table join). The client does not need > to check parameter uniqueness. It only needs to match up the enums to > recreate the JSON of the objects in the array of structures (or regroup > them into the OPT RR wire format if you prefer). > The SVCB draft makes no mention of JSON, but I presume you mean any application-specific representation of the service binding. I understand that it would be possible to reconstruct bindings from labeled records spread across the RRSet in the way you're describing, but simply encoding each binding into a record seems much more straightforward. > This is the absolute simplest thing to code > Breaking the binding into pieces creates many new opportunities for error, such as having multiple TargetNames in a single binding. It corresponds to a multimap datastructure instead of a standard map. Every attribute of each binding would naturally be an unordered collection, which is a bad fit for attributes that are required to be singular, or an ordered list, or anything other than a set. Switching to a zone file format that is simpler to parse would go a long > way to improving those. > Separating the binding into separate records transfers complexity from zone file implementors to zone file authors, who must express a simple key=value map by writing multiple records using explicit binding indexes. For a human reading a zone file, it is particularly difficult: a single binding could be broken up into records separated across the zone file, with surprising consequences if you forget to clean one up, typo a binding index, or accidentally create an index collision between two bindings. I continue to prefer the draft's current format. It hews closer to DNS tradition (wire format from OPT, zone file format from DNS-SD). It avoids the novel paradigm of cross-RR reconstruction. It is not speculative, having now been validated by at least a dozen full-production implementations. It is more efficient on the wire. Considering alternative formats is an intriguing exercise, but I do not think it is likely to result in improvements to SVCB. >
- [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https-0… internet-drafts
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Petr Špaček
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tom
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- [DNSOP] ZONEMD was Re: [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ie… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… libor.peltan
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Vladimír Čunát
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] ZONEMD was Re: [Ext] I-D Action: draf… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… libor.peltan
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] ZONEMD was Re: [Ext] I-D Action: draf… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… libor.peltan
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tommy Pauly
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tommy Pauly
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tommy Pauly
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Martin Thomson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Martin Thomson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Martin Thomson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- [DNSOP] Sub-field encoding scheme discussion (pos… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz