Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https-05.txt
Eric Orth <ericorth@google.com> Thu, 13 May 2021 15:29 UTC
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From: Eric Orth <ericorth@google.com>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 11:29:07 -0400
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To: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Cc: Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https-05.txt
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On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 3:51 AM Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 9:33 PM Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 7:14 PM Brian Dickson < >> brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> It is demonstrably more likely that a complex parser will have problems, >>> than something that combines data from simple RRs in simple RRsets will >>> have problems. >>> (The history of SMTP is, I think, a good poster child for this, with MX, >>> A, AAAA, plus DNSSEC and TLSA support in the clients, which are email >>> transport things, not merely DNS things.) >>> >> >> The SVCB parameters' wire format is an extremely simple TLV arrangement; >> I don't think "a complex parser" is required. >> > > This is an apples/oranges argument, the parsing complexity I'm referring > to (I thought explicitly, but I guess that is too far up-thread) is the > presentation (aka zone file) format. > The initial opinions (not just mine) were that the format, while maybe > familiar to HTTP implementers, is very un-DNS-like, and the proposition was > that the complexity was not strictly necessary. > > While combining multiple simple records into a complex record, in wire > format, would not be difficult, it is not what DNS authority servers do, > and is not what resolvers do. > > But, the _wire format_ of the original proposed record is not at issue, > and never has been, so I don't understand why you bring that up. > A lot of the recent debate here has delved into the fundamental structuring of how SVCB info is divided into records. That very much affects both presentation and wire format. I really prefer the current wire format over most of the suggestions in this thread, but I don't really have any strong opinions regarding presentation format. Making presentation format split things into multiple "records" but stitching it up into a single wire record isn't a reasonable option, right? > > >> It's also far from a novel design for DNS; in fact, it's identical to the >> widely implemented OPT RR RDATA format from 1999 [1][2]. >> > > That is actually an interesting point, for one very important reason: NONE > of the OPT RR elements are zone file constructs. They are all metadata, > typically established by the configurations of various implementations of > DNS clients and servers (including authority servers and resolvers). > > So, you are actually making the point for me, that the wire format of > something that isn't a zone file component, can be complex and trivial to > parse. We agree on this completely. The TLV aspect is well understood, and > a component of many protocols (e.g. BGP, another protocol I'm actively > involved in via the IDR WG). > > Having complex records in zone files is unwise, if it is not strictly > required. > > The question was raised, as to whether that format is strictly required, > and I think the consensus is that it is not. > > >> >> What you're describing here, an arrangement in which clients partition >> RRSets into subsets and then reassemble bindings from those subsets, >> strikes me as highly novel, in contrast, and somewhat more complex. >> > > It is a simple table join using a single key. It was unabashedly ripped > off from the RDBMS field of programming. Or actually COBOL, from the early > 1980's. It's a hack, slightly clever maybe, but extremely simple and > reliable. > The requirement that each SvcParameter occur only once, is actually > enforced directly via the 4-tuple uniquess criteria for DNS: owner, class, > type, RDATA. If the RDATA consists of priority, enum, key, value pair, DNS > enforces the uniqueness automatically. > (This technically makes the semantic component of what would otherwise be > a complex parser moot, and the syntactic part, the easy part, is all that > needs to be implemented.) > This also vastly simplifies the encoding/decoding of unknown RDATA, since > the priority, enum, and key are numeric values of fixed size, leaving a > single "value" component. > > The enumerator is the key (for the table join). The client does not need > to check parameter uniqueness. It only needs to match up the enums to > recreate the JSON of the objects in the array of structures (or regroup > them into the OPT RR wire format if you prefer). > This is the absolute simplest thing to code, and the absolute furthest > thing from "novel". Its use as an encoding in DNS might be new, but it is > the kind of thing that unit tests can handle trivially. > > So, to be clear, I'm only explaining the what and how, and maybe some > parts of the why. I'm not in particular advocating strongly for using it, > only presenting it as a viable option, for other folks to discuss the > merits of. > > >> >> Perhaps complexity is subjective. The important thing is that the >> standard be reasonably implementable. I hope that the list of published >> implementations [3] will serve as convincing evidence that the current >> draft is sufficient in that regard. >> > > Implementable isn't the same as maintainable or simple to debug, or to > confirm interoperability. This is particularly a concern across situations > of zone file export, copy, and subsequent import on all of the other > implementations. You may be underestimating the number of implementations. > Switching to a zone file format that is simpler to parse would go a long > way to improving those. > > Brian >
- [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https-0… internet-drafts
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Petr Špaček
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-htt… Wellington, Brian
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tom
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Pieter Lexis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- [DNSOP] ZONEMD was Re: [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ie… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… libor.peltan
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Vladimír Čunát
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] ZONEMD was Re: [Ext] I-D Action: draf… Wessels, Duane
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… libor.peltan
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] ZONEMD was Re: [Ext] I-D Action: draf… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… libor.peltan
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tommy Pauly
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tommy Pauly
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tommy Pauly
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Erik Nygren
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Martin Thomson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Martin Thomson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Martin Thomson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Eric Orth
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Tim Wicinski
- [DNSOP] Sub-field encoding scheme discussion (pos… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Dick Franks
- Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-sv… Ben Schwartz