Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Sat, 25 September 2021 02:19 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2021 19:18:32 -0700
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To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Cc: Lloyd W <lloyd.wood=40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>, draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt
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I am in favor of publishing this document. Those who would prefer some more global change to the SAA process should instead propose those changes in the form of a draft. -Ekr On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 12:25 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-9-17, at 13:31, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood=40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> > wrote: > > As a latecomer to this thread, and as someone with rather more recent > > experience of the SAAs than most... section 4 says: > > > > A sergeant-at-arms (SAA) is an officer appointed by a deliberative > > body to keep order during its meetings [SAA-WIKIPEDIA]. SAAs for the > > IETF discussion list are appointed by the IETF Chair > > > > The contradiction here is obvious. An SAA is appointed by a deliberative > body, > > during its meetings, and the IETF Chair is not a deliberative body. > > I added this quote from Wikipedia, because SAA is a pretty US/UK-centric > term, and I received feedback that it is confusing to participants from > other regions when they first encounter it. > > I'd be happy to point to a different explanatory definition. I'd also be > happy to remove it again. > > > An SAA > > should be appointed by the deliberative body itself, which is to say, > the list > > itself, by the list members. > > Maybe it should, but BCP45 didn't set it up this way and this draft is not > intending to change that. > > > Furthermore, this draft is written by the current IETF Chair. So, this > can > > be seen as shoring up and reaffirming the Chair's power. > > If you compare this document to BCP45, you will find that it actually > significantly reduces the power of the IETF Chair. First, BCP45 allows for > the Chair to directly impose posting restrictions. This hasn't been the > practice for quite a number of years, and this document hence removes that > option, placing it entirely at the disposition of the SAAs. Second, it > clarifies that the appeals process applies here, which BCP45 left somewhat > unclear. > > > I strongly object to this. Documenting or redocumenting an existing > process > > doesn't make that process right, and this violates the basic concept of > the > > SAA as described. > > If you would like to propose changes to the BCP45 SAA process, please do > so. Objecting to this document isn't going to result in such changes, > because BCP45 would remain unchanged. > > Thanks, > Lars > > > > > > Lloyd Wood > > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > > >> On 15 Sep 2021, at 18:48, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton= > 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >> I’ve not seen any further comments on this thread since Saturday. > >> > >> My interpretation is that Lars and Barry are supportive of this change. > >> > >> Brian, my interpretation is that Lar’s proposed text is acceptable to > you. Please clarify if this is not the case. > >> > >> I would like to wait until Friday to see if there are any further > comments on Lar’s proposed text. If there are no strong objections then on > Friday I’ll ask Lars to post a -05 with the change and I’ll kick off IETF > LC. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Rob > >> > >> > >> From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > >> Sent: 11 September 2021 08:38 > >> To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> > >> Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>; GENDISPATCH List < > gendispatch@ietf.org>; draft-eggert-bcp45bis.all@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - > draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt > >> > >> Hi Lars, > >> Since 2026 doesn't mention conflict of interest, that's probably the > procedure. Not entirely satisfactory, but we could live with it. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Brian Carpenter > >> (via tiny screen & keyboard) > >> > >> On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 17:37 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.org> wrote: > >> Hi Brian, > >> > >> Is that an option in your reading of 2026? They way I understand it is > that if the AD is conflicted, the entire IESG is the next step? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Lars > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > >> > >> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 23:20, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > On 10-Sep-21 23:01, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> >> That works for me, Lars, and thanks. > >> >> > >> >> I see Brian's point about Gen AD instead of IETF Chair, but I don't > >> >> agree with it here, because the SAAs are explicitly appointed by the > >> >> IETF Chair, not related to the Gen Area. > >> > > >> > You're correct. There's still the corner case where the IETF Chair is > >> > conflicted - for example, if the message(s) objected to by the SAAs > >> > made allegations about the IETF Chair themself. Probably another AD > >> > should be the first recourse in that case. > >> > > >> > Brian > >> > > >> >> > >> >> Barry > >> >> > >> >>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 3:11 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> > wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> Hi, > >> >>> > >> >>> I have a proposed change to use the normal RFC2026 appeals process > in https://github.com/larseggert/bcp45bis/pull/7/files. This is the > current change: > >> >>> > >> >>> --- a/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >> >>> +++ b/draft-eggert-bcp45bis.md > >> >>> @@ -192,8 +192,8 @@ manner. > >> >>> > >> >>> Because an SAA serves at the discretion of the IETF Chair - even if > the IETF > >> >>> Chair is not otherwise involved in the operation of the SAA team - > any SAA > >> >>> -decision could be appealed to the IAB. The IAB shall then review > the situation > >> >>> -and attempt to resolve it in a manner of its own choosing. > >> >>> +decision can be appealed to the IETF Chair, per {{!RFC2026}}. > Decisions by the > >> >>> +IETF Chair can be appealed to the IESG as whole, again per > {{!RFC2026}}. > >> >>> > >> >>> # Security Considerations > >> >>> > >> >>> Please let me know if this expresses what is desired? > >> >>> > >> >>> Thanks, > >> >>> Lars > >> >>> > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Gendispatch mailing list > >> > Gendispatch@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > >> > >> -- > >> Gendispatch mailing list > >> Gendispatch@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > > Gendispatch mailing list > > Gendispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list > Gendispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch >
- [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eg… internet-drafts
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lloyd W
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lloyd W
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert