IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [I18ndir] [art] Just uploaded draft-bray-unichars-03

Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Mon, 11 September 2023 01:04 UTC

Return-Path: <sayrer@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA48C151062; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 18:04:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.107
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KF3Hc18UAe7O; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 18:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46A78C14F73E; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 18:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-502a7e1bdc7so2610403e87.0; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 18:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1694394254; x=1694999054; darn=ietf.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=4xmuA76x9UDWjwDfAu5ou1NCMniL8M8Zmxc8DTcmSmA=; b=cZ+5FUNbUFnDZr24FmpExRL7SnRaXotwdXMnXTEan38dsT6uj+ihs6FJgWAv/wxvfI SoCnzTG6K4iGm6RkGe1Ja3CQdeXwF696kFULP6G+6bpHDRm6OXYmCso0x5TDK4HAwtnp dIC4x81acu1y+KONpRO/tZiYRGZ24UKlL6FoMfMllmJcXqv4G8A/9KbvaFfiCZZnuvO3 IkreOSvVRYFNTCgeclEFSOIRVZfoJHxvfgH/ARsDo4g0y2jnZBNrSIPLbAyi8U5a3Fyy muWstwKYKGM+UIYFm05M2zJ+yxTAundq4rrgwX/cSC/lTRJ+855PSMx6O1M5G6PEfjDk T8OQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694394254; x=1694999054; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=4xmuA76x9UDWjwDfAu5ou1NCMniL8M8Zmxc8DTcmSmA=; b=uUftVeA4znC1RwPEwAuvABGRCIMCozSjH580c3Gz1CPKiCzchwsb3HlSx0/O2bcHHp otz+S33e39Q7/zvyIryKF6csQMrkSsyjl1XJCT4VnuMZ13yGT/wNKHzmT7yWifG95XKe 326KN1kSeS5bp57uw2i98Q3UUK2lGfcHiXCVJDtivXehh6RiUnTHzycbIBzb4kfZwpoN 6xMb8fPWPdx4YDTUfXRQhV/XLLyLhtc/1wLwNtjNOsSu1BJPPa49sE+6S05x0NUaz9TP 34/zmH2o166kyABxZ34tgBTyFBsls94/YxD4YwbyOgO4qk6Lqk94CoqaC2+SlEXBVp6o TEZA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz8hSW8o65Er9pj4AQxlLsTcZo/eAXKLdjCUTtHUauIQuKbcRGd QlaPQr1g1PXbvVhxaPDCDXFnOzuYoAq+yMX42mM=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHrzDCOZGCcqvbycNpZJhXI+6IWZ8p3cISu31MXnMJL4+SZfjDhtTcM3tYAgGchUM0KnK7P1iBj1lD+r5sy3Qw=
X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4f06:0:b0:4fe:7e7f:1328 with SMTP id k6-20020ac24f06000000b004fe7e7f1328mr6768581lfr.16.1694394253579; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 18:04:13 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAHBU6isneG874m8vJixwB0y3E_1p_E15vDH4gB4uuegkpA1tCg@mail.gmail.com> <B033EE3E-DEC4-4A30-BFD1-633738E9F914@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <B033EE3E-DEC4-4A30-BFD1-633738E9F914@tzi.org>
From: Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 18:04:01 -0700
Message-ID: <CAChr6Sz7EDGgKrEhBpsrh7eqqxtOZYHyq50BJfq9e4_PjpPuAw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>, "Manger, James" <James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com>, Asmus Freytag <asmusf@ix.netcom.com>, i18ndir@ietf.org, ART Area <art@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000981c0006050ae7d9"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i18ndir/RKWVURRrLzGPOLbsux3cMEatlfk>
Subject: Re: [I18ndir] [art] Just uploaded draft-bray-unichars-03
X-BeenThere: i18ndir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internationalization Directorate <i18ndir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/i18ndir/>
List-Post: <mailto:i18ndir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2023 01:04:18 -0000

On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 4:36 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

> The json problem is indeed there, and we knew how to fix it all along but
> didn’t for political reasons.
>

I'm glad we all seem to agree there is some ugly JSON. But I would not say
the problem persists for political reasons. I think the real issue is that
sometimes the correctness of the format doesn't matter too much. It's more
important to do something (anything). Along these lines, you get JSON,
JavaScript, CSS, HTML5. Any byte sequence does something. HTML5 is an
absolute terror here, but this is by design.

As any company gets bigger, you have to stop using JSON. The reason is not
that CBOR or Avro or Thrift or Protocol Buffers are faster (usually they
are a little bit), but that you do not have to maintain a separate wiki
page about what's in the JSON.

Now, if you're going for correctness, XML, I-JSON, or any of the protocols
mentioned above are better. But these are for professionals. The really
popular formats are also produced by amateurs, so the draft is right to
mention incoming nonsense. The trick here is to say that you should not
send these looser formats if you're trying to be precise.

thanks,
Rob

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email