Re: [I18ndir] [art] Just uploaded draft-bray-unichars-03

Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> Sun, 10 September 2023 17:25 UTC

Return-Path: <tbray@textuality.com>
X-Original-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB1AC151090 for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 10:25:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.095
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.095 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=textuality.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ozwKLqYlmLOr for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 10:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2E50C15107B for <i18ndir@ietf.org>; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 10:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-52a1ce529fdso4905667a12.1 for <i18ndir@ietf.org>; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 10:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality.com; s=google; t=1694366725; x=1694971525; darn=ietf.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=VqmGfz+3hM4p/kT5pcdvqh01te1rFUHIoinUhw2F114=; b=CW9PCqfmVnVMY/OFlSutb13aBujiTAfYal5yanHQKNS3TNjb7hkQx3lH7zNeVlFKCV XkI7P1UdyhvAswG30HozRSkK01lfHUreSe8hg5HRoByXEbYPMeAHcmbdRvLhzjXMBMPZ RqV2Dm6fKkgGs0gqKxdj0+B/l+4PoJHNc3AF0=
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694366725; x=1694971525; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=VqmGfz+3hM4p/kT5pcdvqh01te1rFUHIoinUhw2F114=; b=OcqDpSZCtf67aYJLSf7q8ucSp2ss5zPplQeuUnjUYkAB3nYn61xX7426O6fcx+/8zo y210RAjAMNt/VpdH4RiYPO6wAVwHQajVc9R2XRHBEqbZ8nifI4VXl0WreOwuqDYzz8tC pE48skfJOM9C+Ec6tMF22O2S/Ux7AiArWbU7+wA9DfXT4OhqiAYMtGnIAsXLf5TWB34X K/d9SWPKsB+xTgE7ZziTrIzwwshF75DdO7nOPhTrQWoHlP7PMTRUC5nx+dZPund+mcWz dsC1EUH8CCj+HHbh5Zz2VibhW93c0qWP6sBN4d6CUL7e5roHsqr88nOpX7jfNn4UOb5F fh5Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyOkiaA1dVHFV+y8SFkeBOnXrv93HQNiofA47fuoB7QP3i6sQpb 7qa1crS5wDSU9t3VyqKT7y2lnNa1Xq1/jZGRWG/zQQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFB+txla9H5rNxWmAJ/Z+z29q0UV+5PI8lxl61KpAlrnUEgDtSsZXsI1bBdOyMd4UginoA42SgoxwYV3ufs3ZM=
X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d402:0:b0:52b:c980:43f3 with SMTP id z2-20020aa7d402000000b0052bc98043f3mr6051092edq.28.1694366724982; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 10:25:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from 1064022179695 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 10:25:23 -0700
Received: from 1064022179695 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 10 Sep 2023 10:25:20 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mimestream 1.1.1)
References: <CAHBU6is50TkpDsqXTp6WxdVSgE66j3gGHZ60ey2jFYbefaHFJw@mail.gmail.com> <20230909165843.GlTJy%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <CAHBU6iuixTeS=X1kccw11zEnHVG5tx9aHUC-pH00ociBmukhGQ@mail.gmail.com> <d9d5dee0-24d1-54f0-dde9-4bb9ad2e56e7@ix.netcom.com> <CAChr6Sygs5=fyQ7ZJSVoV5EY9hDZWRkj78r9yH2539vtNTT=aQ@mail.gmail.com> <ff2df364-ecc6-d4f5-2f87-ad94295f102c@ix.netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <ff2df364-ecc6-d4f5-2f87-ad94295f102c@ix.netcom.com>
From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 10:25:23 -0700
Message-ID: <CAHBU6it_WvMZcjymp8pPq=Lzh+O4F5YKmGQPcc0QgZ+pc+85TA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Asmus Freytag <asmusf@ix.netcom.com>
Cc: Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu>, i18ndir@ietf.org, ART Area <art@ietf.org>, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c321ef0605047e28"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i18ndir/WfxPfT_UnGpsNQKElWMQTWK1Z7w>
Subject: Re: [I18ndir] [art] Just uploaded draft-bray-unichars-03
X-BeenThere: i18ndir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internationalization Directorate <i18ndir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/i18ndir/>
List-Post: <mailto:i18ndir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:25:31 -0000

On Sep 10, 2023 at 1:43:07 AM, Asmus Freytag <asmusf@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

I sympathize with the desire not to bring in the entire formalism, so the
> following suggestion might suffice to limit the sense of "transformation
> format" that is intended here.
>
> Unicode describes a variety of "transformation formats", ways to *uniquely
> *encode *each **scalar value* into bytes of computer memory. A survey of
> transformation formats is beyond the scope of this document.
>
> If you like to avoid the term "scalar value" - it is synonymous to
> "non-surrogate code point".
>
The common perception of the meaning of “transformation format” is “UTF-8,
UTF-16, those kinds of things” which is essentially correct and I’m not
sure that it’s good investment of Unicode Consortium effort to try to fix
that. Furthermore, I am pretty sure that most people understand that \u2345
is a JSON-specific thing that is unrelated to transformation formats.

What I’m saying is that I think that the current text is unlikely to
mislead anyone, because the popular understanding of what it means is
pretty well correct. The -04 rev currently under construction calls out
escape sequences and makes it clear that “\uDEAD” is not a way to route
around code point repertoire restrictions.

Let’s revisit this after we’ve seen -04 and if enough people think that the
use of “transformation formats” is still misleading, I think Asmus’
suggestion is OK.


A./
>
>
>
> thanks,
> Rob
>
>
>
>