Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Friday for IETF 73
John C Klensin <john@jck.com> Mon, 21 July 2008 16:33 UTC
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Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:45:51 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john@jck.com>
To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Subject: Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Friday for IETF 73
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--On Friday, 18 July, 2008 17:53 +0300 Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote: > For local flights, what would be the effect? I don't have a > lot of experience with US local flights... maybe you can fill > me in? To look at this, I entered a few major cities on both > coasts into my flight booking tool, and it showed flights from > Minneapolis leaving throughout the day. For west coast, the > last flights seemed to leave about 10 PM or so, for east coast > sometime after 6 PM. You could still make a 6 PM flight even > if the meeting ends at 3:15 PM. Not, in the general case, if you follow the rules and especially if you have any inclination to avoid very expensive cab fares (although the EUR 40 "opportunity" in Dublin with no coach or train service _to the hotel_ is probably a new low). In theory, a 6 PM international flight says that you are supposed to be at the airport at 4 PM. That gives you 45 minutes to get out of the meeting, collect bags if needed, find a taxi or synchronize with a coach, and get to the airport. Maybe. Minneapolis is actually an odd case. It is centrally-located (as these things go) and a major connecting hub for one important airline (a situation that may not last very long in that particular case). For places to which Northwest does not fly, or for anyone for whom Northwest is a "do not fly if at all avoidable" carrier, things get quite a lot worse. For example, a departure from Minneapolis at 19:00 that requires a domestic connection may miss a "latest departure" window and require an overnight stay at the intermediate point. Chicago shares the same general location advantages but has hub-quality service from several carriers, so one is less likely to get trapped. By contrast, consider the possibility of meetings on either of two coasts of the US. From the east coast, almost all flights to Europe leave late afternoon or evening (there are a few exceptions for selected city pairs), so a noon-ending meeting works for a Friday departure. Whether a mid-afternoon ending works depends on distance to the airport, check-in time requirements, and so on. For example, there are city pairs for which the latest Boston departure is around 4PM, for which see above. Asian flights tend to leave relatively early in the morning, so either even Friday morning sessions get blown off (relatively safe for most people in recent years) or there is going to be an overnight stay. From the west coast, both Asian and European flights tend to leave mid-day to early afternoon -- one might get to one morning session, but finishing at noon or later will mean an overnight stay before departing for most city pairs. And, again for most city pairs on the east coast of the US (especially destinations the prohibit late-night flight operations), the cutoff before a flight turns into an otherwise-avoidable red eye is between 2 and 4 PM depending on the departure airport. > Anyway, my conclusion from this very unscientific study is > that while having a longer Friday certainly means arriving > home hours later, it would still seem to be possible for at > least some people to go back the same day. It is almost always possible. And I always appreciate, in principle, the fact that many flights to the US from Asia permit me to arrive before I left (of course, my body doesn't understand that wrt jet lag). But... > But are there other factors at play? Need to arrive home > sooner? Too tired on Fridays? Would have to carry luggage > around if the hotel checkout time cannot be extended? Rules or > preferences about airline selection affect availability of > flights? Week is already long enough? Yes. In order: Yes (for me, unnecessarily losing the ability to spend the weekend -- starting early Saturday if not Friday night-- with friends and extended family is a big deal. It is probably an even bigger deal for many folks with small children). Yes. Yes (see above). And Yes. FYI, the IESG tried, some years ago, to hold a Friday get-together to review the week, plan for the future, avoid lots of breakfast meetings that kept ADs away from the community, and save the expense of separate retreats. It really seemed like a good idea until we discovered that, after 4+ days of intense meetings, we just sat around and started at each other. Of course, that was while we were still doing evening (after dinner) meetings including open-ended plenaries, so maybe it would be different now. That, in turn, leads to an experimental evaluation that I'd encourage the IESG to perform before launching this particular "more Friday" experiment. That is to measure, however subjectively, how effective WGs are that meet in Friday after their participants have been at the meeting all week and active in meeting sessions (groups that meet only Friday and that have significant people flying in on Thursday don't count). > P.S. I generally do not leave until Saturday anyway, mostly > because I often have private meetings after the sessions. And > RRG meets until 5pm Friday in any case. And I would be too > tired to pack and fly on Friday. Ok. But, if the IESG fills up Friday with sessions, some of which you need to attend, would, for example, RRG shift to Saturday, leaving you with the necessity for a Sunday departure? That is the other potential consequence of this plan: lots of things do go on Friday, some in parallel with the lightly-scheduled Friday morning slots and some into and through the afternoon. If this proposed more intense use of Friday pushes those activities into Saturday, the meeting is getting really long, especially for those whose meetings now start the previous Saturday or Sunday morning. Again, I think the real thing that this all points to is the need to be probing the reasons why people think they need more time, rather than moving immediately toward ways to give it to them because they have asked. john _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Friday … IETF Chair
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Robert Sparks
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Paul Hoffman
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Tony Hansen
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… James M. Polk
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Dave Crocker
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Joel Jaeggli
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Russ Housley
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Adrian Farrel
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Russ Housley
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Tony Hansen
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Olafur Gudmundsson
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… John C Klensin
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Bill Manning
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Eliot Lear
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… michael.dillon
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Eric Rosen
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Keith Moore
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Dave Crocker
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Jari Arkko
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Russ Housley
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Russ Housley
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Cyrus Daboo
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Mary Barnes
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Cyrus Daboo
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Andy Bierman
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Dave Crocker
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Dave Crocker
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Spencer Dawkins
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Mary Barnes
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Dave Crocker
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Mary Barnes
- Conference calls (Was: Re: Proposed Experiment: M… Jari Arkko
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Mary Barnes
- Re: Conference calls (Was: Re: Proposed Experimen… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Keith Moore
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Kurt Erik Lindqvist
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… James Galvin
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Eliot Lear
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Dave Cridland
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Tom.Petch
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… John C Klensin
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Nathaniel Borenstein
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Ned Freed
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Fred Baker
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… John C Klensin
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Fred Baker
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Dave Crocker
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Dave Crocker
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… michael.dillon
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… michael.dillon
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marshall Eubanks
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… David Harrington
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Fred Baker
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Fred Baker
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Eric Burger
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marshall Eubanks
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Russ Housley
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marc Manthey
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marc Manthey
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Eric Burger
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Eric Burger
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Marc Manthey
- Teleconf [Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting T… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Teleconf [Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeti… Marc Manthey
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Fred Baker
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Daniel Brown
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Jari Arkko
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Russ Housley
- Re: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Russ Housley
- RE: Proposed Experiment: More Meeting Time on Fri… Glen Zorn