Re: RFC6724-bis?
Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> Thu, 22 September 2022 15:35 UTC
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 11:35:00 -0400
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Subject: Re: RFC6724-bis?
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Still, a local ULA can be presumed reachable, whereas a ULA that is not configured locally may or may not be reachable. Ideally we want to try the thing that will work first. And we’ve actually seen non-local ULAs fail in the wild. So while doing happy eyeballs is a great way to avoid failing when your best guess is wrong, making better guesses is still good. Op do 22 sep. 2022 om 11:30 schreef Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> > > > On Thu, 22 Sept 2022, 20:38 Ted Lemon, <mellon@fugue.com> wrote: > >> Wouldn’t increasing the ULA priority have the problem that we’d get >> longest match wins on alien ULAs though? I think that was why the “add >> local ULAs to the table” rule was originally proposed. >> > > Why is do people think the static default DA/SA selection will always > accurately choose the best outcome for a dynamic network? > > The set of answers from DA/SA selection are supposed to be tested until > one of them succeeds. > > A ULA response in a DNS RR should be the best answer most of the time, > however sometimes the alternative GUA will be better and be successful. > > That is, try the ULA destination, and if that fails, try the GUA DA, when > both are provided in a DNS response. > > A static algorithm like default DA/SA selection is sometimes going to be > wrong when being applied to a dynamic situation. > > Regards, > Mark. > > >> Local ULAs might also be discovered through mDNS, which is I pretty much >> ubiquitous on home networks. >> >> Op do 22 sep. 2022 om 01:25 schreef Brian E Carpenter < >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> >> >>> I agree with Bob that a stand-alone draft (Updates: 6724) is probably >>> a simpler approach than re-opening the whole RFC to comments. >>> >>> Apart from that, the proto-draft says: >>> >>> An implementation MUST automatically add additional site-specific >>> rows >>> to the default table based on its configured addresses, such as for >>> Unique Local Addresses (ULAs) [RFC4193] and 6to4 [RFC3056] addresses, >>> for instance (see Sections 10.6 and 10.7 for examples). >>> >>> That doesn't really compute, because 6to4 is pretty much ancient history. >>> If we make a change of this kind, I think it should be specific to ULAs. >>> And if we want to make the section 10.6 behaviour mandatory, I think we'd >>> want the wording to be precise (with an explicit description of the >>> algorithm the kernel should use). >>> >>> We should also, I think, state clearly that the expectation is that ULAs >>> will normally be discovered via split-horizon DNS, or some other local >>> discovery mechanism (e.g. the one in GRASP [RFC8990]). >>> >>> The other question is: would it be sufficient to do something much >>> simpler, >>> i.e., simply boost the ULA prefix in the default policy table and all >>> examples: >>> >>> fc00::/7 31 13 >>> >>> Where's the harm in that? It will mean that ULAs are picked by the >>> longest match rule when they are present. That won't happen unless >>> there *are* ULAs, so it has precisely zero impact on sites that don't >>> use them. >>> >>> It does no harm to add higher precedence for locally defined ULAs, but >>> I am not convinced it's useful either, in the normal case. >>> >>> The proto-draft also says: >>> >>> This behavior is required for proper functioning of ULA addressing, >>> thus preserving the preference of IPv6 over legacy IPv4 in dual >>> stacked >>> environments as detailed in draft-v6ops-ula. Additionally, requiring >>> local site-specific addressing entry into all nodes preference list >>> further scopes the network communication to local and remote per the >>> respective addressing blocks and creates a more consistent >>> operational >>> model and user experience. >>> >>> I agree with the statement, but it would sit more naturally in a >>> stand-alone update than as a patch on RFC6724. >>> >>> Regards >>> Brian >>> >>> On 21-Sep-22 20:47, Nick Buraglio wrote: >>> > I've gotten some feedback that the diff is hard to read because of the >>> > formatting, so here is a link to the proposal. Please bear in mind >>> > that this is *very* crude and was meant to simply track the idea. >>> > https://github.com/buraglio/ietf-draft-buraglio-rfc6724-update >>> > >>> > ---- >>> > nb >>> > >>> > On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 10:29 AM Nick Buraglio <buraglio@es.net> >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Totally agree - this is just a starting point. I am happy to work on >>> >> whatever the group feels is the right approach and what we feel will >>> >> reach consensus. >>> >> >>> >> ---- >>> >> nb >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 10:25 AM Tim Chown <tjc.ietf@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks Nick. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think the aim here is to see if the WG can get consensus on an >>> approach to address the problem, and document that for consideration for WG >>> adoption. Nick has diffs below to 6724, but it could be a short standalone >>> document the updates 6724. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 21 Sep 2022, at 09:02, Nick Buraglio <buraglio@es.net> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> The changes that I had proposed in my github repo are below, these >>> are >>> >>>> just a starting point, I welcome any and all input. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> @@ -12,7 +12,7 @@ ISSN: 2070-1721 >>> >>>> A. Matsumoto >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Default Address Selection for Internet Protocol Version 6 >>> (IPv6) >>> >>>> - >>> >>>> + ietf-draft-buraglio-rfc6724-update.txt >>> >>>> Abstract >>> >>>> >>> >>>> This document describes two algorithms, one for source address >>> >>>> @@ -347,14 +347,14 @@ RFC 6724 Default Address Selection >>> for >>> >>>> IPv6 September 2012 >>> >>>> fec0::/10 1 11 >>> >>>> 3ffe::/16 1 12 >>> >>>> fec0::/10 1 11 >>> >>>> 3ffe::/16 1 12 >>> >>>> >>> >>>> - An implementation MAY automatically add additional >>> site-specific rows >>> >>>> + An implementation MUST automatically add additional >>> site-specific rows >>> >>>> to the default table based on its configured addresses, such as >>> for >>> >>>> Unique Local Addresses (ULAs) [RFC4193] and 6to4 [RFC3056] >>> addresses, >>> >>>> for instance (see Sections 10.6 and 10.7 for examples). Any >>> such >>> >>>> rows automatically added by the implementation as a result of >>> address >>> >>>> acquisition MUST NOT override a row for the same prefix >>> configured >>> >>>> via other means. That is, rows can be added but never updated >>> >>>> - automatically. An implementation SHOULD provide a means (the >>> >>>> + automatically. An implementation MUST provide a means (the >>> >>>> Automatic Row Additions flag) for an administrator to disable >>> >>>> automatic row additions. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> @@ -363,7 +363,15 @@ RFC 6724 Default Address Selection >>> for >>> >>>> IPv6 September 2012 >>> >>>> addresses, 6to4 source addresses with 6to4 destination >>> addresses, >>> >>>> etc. Another effect of the default policy table is to prefer >>> >>>> communication using IPv6 addresses to communication using IPv4 >>> >>>> - addresses, if matching source addresses are available. >>> >>>> + addresses, if matching source addresses are available. >>> >>>> + >>> >>>> + This behavior is required for proper functioning of ULA >>> addressing, >>> >>>> + thus preserving the preference of IPv6 over legacy IPv4 in dual >>> stacked >>> >>>> + environments as detailed in draft-v6ops-ula. Additionally, >>> requiring >>> >>>> + local site-specific addressing entry into all nodes preference >>> list >>> >>>> + further scopes the network communication to local and remote >>> per the >>> >>>> + respective addressing blocks and creates a more consistent >>> operational >>> >>>> + model and user experience. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Policy table entries for address prefixes that are not of global >>> >>>> scope MAY be qualified with an optional zone index. If so, a >>> prefix >>> >>>> @@ -1541,7 +1549,7 @@ RFC 6724 Default Address Selection >>> for >>> >>>> IPv6 September 2012 >>> >>>> C., and M. Azinger, "IANA-Reserved IPv4 Prefix >>> for >>> >>>> Shared Address Space", BCP 153, RFC 6598, April >>> 2012. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> - >>> >>>> + >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> @@ -1775,6 +1783,9 @@ Authors' Addresses >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> ---- >>> >>>> nb >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 6:06 PM Tim Chown <tjc.ietf@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Hi, >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> As an author of RFC6724 I’ve had the discussions about a possible >>> update of RFC6724 brought to my attention. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> An example thread over on v6ops is >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/W6HjHc11JX364soq3t3gFMHSawE/, >>> but there are others. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Nick Buraglio has documented the problem in >>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-00. The short of it is that RFC1918 IPv4 addresses >>> may be preferred to IPv6 ULAs in certain circumstances, which I would agree >>> is not desired behaviour. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> There are a few ways we might look to address this. There is a >>> proposal from Nick (not yet published outside a git repo) to address it by >>> changing wording in section 2.1, with a couple of MAYs becoming MUSTs, and >>> adding an extra explaining paragraph. This basically firms up the >>> requirement to follow 6.10 on adding an extra precedence line for local ULA >>> prefix(es). >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Now, that may or may not be the preferred solution of the WG, but >>> I think there’s a few questions to consider: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 1. Is there agreement we should address the problem? I’d assume >>> so because Nick's problem draft was adopted by v6ops. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 2. If so, is 6man the place to do it? I think it has to be. >>> RFC6724 was born here. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 3. How do we determine the best solution to the problem? I >>> suspect there are nuances in play that will make a one size fit all >>> ’simple’ fix tricky, but I look forward to the discussion. Nick has one >>> proposal that counts to a couple of word changes and an extra paragraph, >>> which I’d encourage him to share here, but there are other approaches >>> proposed on v6ops. I think either way, it will require some update to or >>> for RFC6724. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 4. Does this work warrant a full -bis or would a separate RFC that >>> updates 6724 be better? A separate Updating draft might better highlight >>> the issue to implementors. But then RFC6724 is now ten years old, and >>> RFC3484 which it replaced was nine years before that. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 5. If we choose to open up a full -bis, are there any other worms >>> in this can? I have a feeling also here I know the likely answer…. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Anyway, over to the WG… thoughts? >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Tim >>> >>> >>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> > ipv6@ietf.org >>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >
- RFC6724-bis? Tim Chown
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Nick Buraglio
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Nick Buraglio
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Nick Buraglio
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Nick Buraglio
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Tim Chown
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Nick Buraglio
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Nick Buraglio
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Bob Hinden
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Brian E Carpenter
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Mark Smith
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Michael Richardson
- Re: RFC6724-bis? David Farmer
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Michael Richardson
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Mark Smith
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC6724-bis? David Farmer
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Brian E Carpenter
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? David Farmer
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Nick Buraglio
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC6724-bis? David Farmer
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Nick Buraglio
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Nick Buraglio
- Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] David Farmer
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Michael Richardson
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Brian Carpenter
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Michael Richardson
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Nick Buraglio
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Mark Smith
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Ted Lemon
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] David Farmer
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Mark Smith
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Michael Richardson
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] David Farmer
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] David Farmer
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Ole Troan
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Ole Troan
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Timothy Winters
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Nick Buraglio
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Brian Carpenter
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Ole Troan
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Brian Carpenter
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Ole Troan
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] David Farmer
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Michael Richardson
- Re: Network merge [Re: RFC6724-bis?] Ted Lemon
- RE: RFC6724-bis? Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Ted Lemon
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Nick Buraglio
- Re: RFC6724-bis? Michael Richardson