RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
<mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> Mon, 20 November 2017 07:41 UTC
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From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
CC: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
Subject: RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
Thread-Topic: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
Thread-Index: AQHTX4U1swcBlM/8z0eNn33c3P4KiKMc5AXw
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 07:41:48 +0000
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Hi Ole, Please see inline. Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > Envoyé : vendredi 17 novembre 2017 10:20 > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN > Cc : Jen Linkova; 6man WG; Mark Andrews > Objet : Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? > > Med, > > Thanks for all the references. Seems like most bases have been covered > here. ;-) > > For the IETF NAT64 IMHO [Med] As you are mentioning "IETF" explicitly, NAT64 may not be the appropriate "IPv4 service continuity" solution here. I need: > - No dependency on DNS64. Want to use recursive resolver I trust plus > local validating resolver. > - Not depend on the success of PCP for NAT64 prefix discovery > - If the host couldn't learn the NAT64 prefix any other way, I suppose it > could throw an ICMP echo towards > 64:ff9b::127.0.0.1 (or perhaps just 64:ff9b::) > [Med] Fair. That is another "add my favorite solution" to the list. > But I also see there being different deployment options here. > Btw, for multiple NSPs, couldn't you partly solve that by injecting more > specifics into routing? [Med] It is not only about forwarding/routing, but also how a host can pick the appropriate prefix64 for address synthesis. Things may be obvious if you can consider the example of RFC7050: NAT64 "A" ----- IPv4-only servers in a data center / IPv6-only node---< \ NAT64 "B" ----- IPv4 Internet > > Cheers, > Ole > > > > On 17 Nov 2017, at 16:47, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> > <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Jen, > > > > Please see inline. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > >> -----Message d'origine----- > >> De : Jen Linkova [mailto:furry13@gmail.com] > >> Envoyé : vendredi 17 novembre 2017 09:31 > >> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN > >> Cc : Ole Troan; 6man WG; Mark Andrews > >> Objet : Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? > >> > >> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> > wrote: > >>>> IMHO the optimal solution is: > >>>> - the network SHOULD provide a host with NAT64 prefix information in > >>>> RA (I do not believe that information needs to be duplicated in DHCP > >>>> at all); > >>> > >>> [Med] Please check: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7051#section-5.7.3 > >> > >> Thanks for pointing this out. To be honest I disagree with what that > >> section says. > > > > [Med] I also disagree with many of the points in RFC7051, but that is > the document which reflects the IETF consensus on learning prefix64s. > > > > We had many opportunities in the past to ignore the recommendations in > RFC7051, but we didn't. For example, RFC8115 says the following: > > > > == > > Note that it was tempting to define three distinct DHCPv6 options, > > but that approach was not adopted because it has a side effect: the > > specification of a DHCPv6 option that could be used to discover > > unicast Prefix64s in environments where multicast is not enabled. > > Such a side effect conflicts with the recommendation to support the > > Well-Known DNS Name heuristic discovery-based method for unicast-only > > environments (Section 6 of [RFC7051]). > > == > > > >> I'm trying to refrain from participating 'SLAAC vs DHCPv6' so I will > >> not mention all those issues with multihoming for example but.... > >> If you are saying that the prefix should not be distributed via RAs > >> because it needs to be configured on routers, then what about DNS > >> servers and SLAAC prefixes themselves? > >> There are SLAAC-only networks out there while RFC7934 does not > >> recommend DHCPv6 as the only way to configure clients. > >> So between those two RA does look like a better way. > > > > [Med] It is evident that RA-based approach may be a good candidate for > some deployments. Others may argue that another solution is appropriate > for their deployment, and so on. > > > >> > >>> Things may get complex if multiple NSPs are used for load-balancing or > >> if destination based NAT64s are deployed. A list of issues is > elaborated > >> in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7225#section-3.1 > >> > >> It's more like v6ops question but I'm really curious if multiple > >> prefixes scenario is real. > >> RA option might contain multiple prefixes anyway. > > > > [Med] Indeed. It is already ACKed in 7051: > > > > Note: If the RA would include multiple NSPs, Issue #5 could be solved > > as well, but only if nodes as a group would select different NSPs, > > hence supporting load balancing. As this is not clear, this item is > > not yet listed under PROs or CONs. > > > >> > >>>>>> On 15 Nov 2017, at 08:06, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 15 Nov 2017, at 3:40 am, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 6:46 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> > >> wrote: > >>>>>>> Is there any reason to run DNS64 at all these days? ipv4only.arpa > >> can > >>>> be a preconfigured > >>>>>>> zone which allows CLAT to get its mapping. All the phones have > >> CLAT > >>>> support. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> That's an interesting idea. It would work in theory, but such a > >>>> network would completely break devices that don't support 464xlat. > That > >>>> gives up one of the major advantages of NAT64/DNS64, which is that > it's > >> a > >>>> 90% solution even just by itself - yes, IPv4-only applications and > >> address > >>>> literals exist, but most simple client/server applications Just Work > >>>> behind it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> And that 90% “solution” has lots of down sides. It basically > >> requires > >>>> EVERY DNS VALIDATOR ON > >>>>>> THE PLANET TO SUPPORT DNS64 JUST IN CASE IT IS USED BEHIND A DNS64 > >>>> SERVER. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> DNS64/NAT64 was presented as NOT REQUIRING node changes when first > >>>> mooted. It keeps on > >>>>>> requiring more and more highly invasive node changes to support. > It > >>>> was from the very beginning > >>>>>> bad engineering. To get IPv4 as a service some node changes are > >>>> required. Lets make sure they > >>>>>> are MINIMAL ones. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Just for the record DNSSEC validators need to send BOTH CD=0 and > >> CD=1 > >>>> queries to get answers > >>>>>> though a upstream VALIDATING server which includes a VALIDATING > >> DNS64 > >>>> server as CD=0 and > >>>>>> CD=1 address different DNSSEC threats. I tried very hard to point > >> that > >>>> out when RFC 6147 was > >>>>>> being written but the working group decide that CD indicated > whether > >>>> the client was validating or > >>>>>> not. There is NO SUCH INDICATION in a DNS message. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If a query arrives at a vDNS64 device with the "Checking Disabled" > >>>>>> (CD) bit set, it is an indication that the querying agent wants > >> all > >>>>>> the validation data so it can do checking itself. By local > >> policy, > >>>>>> vDNS64 could still validate, but it must return all data to the > >>>>>> querying agent anyway. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> CD=0 queries causes the upstream validating servers to reject > >> incoming > >>>> spoofed answers > >>>>>> or stale answers (this is a common operational problem). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> CD=1 queries allow the validation to succeed when the upstream > >>>> validator has a bad trust > >>>>>> anchor or a bad clock which is rejecting legitimate answers. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> A validating client can’t just send CD=1 queries as the upstream > >>>> validator doesn’t kick in. > >>>>>> The upstream validator can lock onto a stale answer source. It > >> needs > >>>> to send CD=0 queries > >>>>>> on validation failure to force the upstream validator to try > >> multiple > >>>> sources. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> A validating client can’t just send CD=0. It needs to send CD=1 on > >>>> SERVFAIL in case the > >>>>>> upstream validator has a bad trust anchor (likely with the upcoming > >>>> root KSK roll) or has > >>>>>> a bad clock (these usually get fixed fast). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Now to get a answer from a signed zone with servers with stale > >> answers > >>>> a validatiing DNS64 client > >>>>>> needs to send: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> a) send CD=1 and validation failure send CD=0 then on AAAA > >> validation > >>>> failure send CD=1 and > >>>>>> hope the TTL was not 0 and that is not cachable and there is no > >>>> assurance that you won’t get > >>>>>> a answer from a stale source. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> or > >>>>>> > >>>>>> b) send CD=0 and on validation failure of the AAAA send CD=1 and > >> hope > >>>> the TTL was not 0 as > >>>>>> that is not cachable and there is no assurance that you won’t get > >> a > >>>> answer from a stale source. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> TTL=0 answers exist. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Note none of this is documented in a RFC. You have to understand > >> how > >>>> both DNSSEC and DNS64 work to > >>>>>> realise this. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> IPV4ONLY.ARPA is currently has a secure delegation which breaks > >> prefix > >>>> discover for DNS VALIDATORS. > >>>>>> Note “ad” is set in the flags. Yes, I’ve submitted a errata. Yes, > >>>> I’ve opened a ticket to get it fixed but > >>>>>> based on past experience that could take months if it happens at > >> all. > >>>> You will note that the recursive > >>>>>> server is running on the loopback interface so all DNS answers are > >>>> being validated here. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [rock:bind9/bin/named] marka% dig IPV4ONLY.ARPA > >>>>>> ;; BADCOOKIE, retrying. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ; <<>> DiG 9.12.0b2+hotspot+add-prefetch+marka <<>> IPV4ONLY.ARPA > >>>>>> ;; global options: +cmd > >>>>>> ;; Got answer: > >>>>>> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 8504 > >>>>>> ;; flags: qr rd ra ad; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, > >> ADDITIONAL: 1 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION: > >>>>>> ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 4096 > >>>>>> ; COOKIE: 7dbf8beb79be47a09eb5313d5a0b776f4fae3aa6931d9583 (good) > >>>>>> ;; QUESTION SECTION: > >>>>>> ;IPV4ONLY.ARPA. IN A > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ;; ANSWER SECTION: > >>>>>> ipv4only.arpa. 26574 IN A 192.0.0.171 > >>>>>> ipv4only.arpa. 26574 IN A 192.0.0.170 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ;; Query time: 0 msec > >>>>>> ;; SERVER: 127.0.0.1#53(127.0.0.1) > >>>>>> ;; WHEN: Wed Nov 15 10:08:31 AEDT 2017 > >>>>>> ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 115 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [rock:bind9/bin/named] marka% > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> It's not true that all phones have clat support. Notably, Apple > not > >>>> only does not support it but appears ideologically opposed to it on > the > >>>> grounds that it does not have a good exit strategy (because it makes > it > >>>> possible to run IPv4-only apps forever). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Mark Andrews, ISC > >>>>>> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia > >>>>>> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org > >>>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >>>>> ipv6@ietf.org > >>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >>>> ipv6@ietf.org > >>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
- IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Rajiv Asati (rajiva)
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 require… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Erik Kline
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 re… Tim Chown
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Ca By
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Tim Chown
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Ca By
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Michael Richardson
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… james woodyatt
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Fred Baker
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Fred Baker
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Fernando Gont
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Simon Hobson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lee Howard
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lee Howard
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Masanobu Kawashima
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ola Thoresen
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter