RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
Masanobu Kawashima <kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com> Tue, 21 November 2017 04:11 UTC
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From: Masanobu Kawashima <kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com>
To: "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
Thread-Topic: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 04:11:01 +0000
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References: <m1eEGbJ-0000EhC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <44A862B7-7182-4B3A-B46E-73065FC4D852@isc.org> <D42D8D7A-6D19-4862-9BB3-4913058A83B6@employees.org> <CAFU7BARCLq9eznccEtkdnKPAtKNT7Mf1bW0uZByPvxtiSrv6EQ@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A07AD68@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <CAFU7BARoXgodiTJfTGc1dUfQ8-ER_r8UOE1c3h-+G0KTeCgBew@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A07C625@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <7EE41034-132E-45F0-8F76-6BA6AFE3E916@employees.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A07D481@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <0C83562D-859B-438C-9A90-2480BB166737@employees.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A07D534@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <26A31D20-46C2-473E-9565-59E5BA85ED8B@employees.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A07D63D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <F9E3BD88-38E0-4329-A4BF-22083A023268@employees.org> <f673d6c7-570e-b2b8-e8aa-15d73ea8ba3f@gmail.com> <5DAEE862-0BD0-4DA6-AE7A-B4B6A2CAE617@consulintel.es> <D05E1703-9357-4BB2-B535-AEC23924281A@consulintel.es>
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Hi Jordi, > At some point the NAT64 service, instead of being provided by the ISP it will make sense to be provided by third party > companies, even if there is some extra delay to reach a remote NAT64, etc., and even if there is an extra cost for that > customer that still requires it. In Japan, JPIX(Japan Internet Exchange) is providing 464XLAT trial service to ISPs. https://www.jpix.ad.jp/en/technical_exchange.php PLAT(NAT64 service) is providing from JPIX, then ISPs are using CLAT CPE. We might need this kind of service near future. Just FYI. :-) Regards, Masanobu ==================================== NEC Platforms, Ltd. Access-Device Division KAWASHIMA Masanobu kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com https://www.necplatforms.co.jp/en/ ==================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 5:13 AM > To: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? > > And by the way … > > At some point the NAT64 service, instead of being provided by the ISP it will make sense to be provided by third party > companies, even if there is some extra delay to reach a remote NAT64, etc., and even if there is an extra cost for that > customer that still requires it. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> Responder a: > <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> > Fecha: lunes, 20 de noviembre de 2017, 21:11 > Para: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org> > Asunto: Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? > > It is clear to me that hotel rooms need to provide IPv6 + IPv4-as-a-service (for example using a CE or AP with CLAT). > > The hotel network or its access can be IPv6-only and then the ISP provide the NAT64. > > I’m sure someone will argue that this means perpetuating IPv4: Is not the case. > > The case is being realistic about what an ISP or an hotel or any other organizations NEEDs to provide to their customers > if they want to keep them. > > If the hotels provide IPv6 + IPv4-as-a-service, the customer is happy and more and more traffic is moving from IPv4 > to IPv6 in a natural way. > > If some app developers don’t see it, or if some content providers or enterprises where the VPN is being connected, > there will be a point where the IPv4 traffic is meaningless and they have the risk that at that point the IPv4-as-a-service > is not offered anymore, not because the cost of the CLAT, but because the cost of the NAT64. > > The only way we can motivate all them to move to IPv6 is to make sure that when, for example 75% of the Internet traffic > is IPv6, we clearly announce that IPv4 is historical, has not maintenance, and will be dropped and unsupported and will > not be able to be reachable. It is the ISPs work to decide if they want to keep providing NAT64 or not, and to tell their > customers. At some point, more and more ISPs will drop that service. Wherever that point is at the 75% of IPv6 traffic > or 95% or something in the middle is to be decided by each ISP, also maybe depending on their competitors, etc. > > I recall a few years ago when a phone company in Spain still had a few customers with old “pulse disk phones”. They > took the decision to cancel the contract to those customers if they don’t want to get the phone replaces with DTMF phones. > > Same today is happening with customers with ADSL where there is GPON coverage. You accept to be replaced to GPON, > or they cancel the contract, because it is more expensive to keep a few “old fashioned” customers that the profit they > generate. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > Organización: University of Auckland > Responder a: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > Fecha: lunes, 20 de noviembre de 2017, 20:37 > Para: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> > CC: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> > Asunto: Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? > > On 21/11/2017 02:36, Ole Troan wrote: > ...>> [Med] These are generic statements, Ole. We are talking about the IETF case. > >> * The IETF has no control on the hosts that connect to the IETF network, > >> * IETF attendees who are using corporate devices, have no control on these hosts > >> > >> So, how forcing devices to use "IPv6+nat64" will help here? > > > > Eat own dogfood. Many IETF people are developers or work for companies having applications not working. > > As I said there were a minimum of applications that didn't work. Corporate VPNs largely did. Jen has the final > numbers. > > However, as long as even one application, such as one VPN, or one > literal IPv4 address, fails, that represents millions of failure cases > if we consider the whole world (e.g. imagine every hotel network in > the world running IPv6+NAT64 only). That simply isn't viable. Dual > stack in every hotel room in the world is viable, from the hotel guests' > point of view. Operators might not like it, but users wouldn't care. > > Brian > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended > to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited > and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, > will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and > delete it. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended > to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited > and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, > will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and > delete it. > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be > for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited > and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, > will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and > delete it. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > --------------------------------------------------------------------
- IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Rajiv Asati (rajiva)
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 require… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Erik Kline
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 re… Tim Chown
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Ca By
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Tim Chown
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Ca By
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Michael Richardson
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… james woodyatt
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Fred Baker
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Fred Baker
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Fernando Gont
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Simon Hobson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lee Howard
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lee Howard
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Masanobu Kawashima
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ola Thoresen
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter