RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Wed, 12 August 2020 12:36 UTC
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Manfredi (US), Albert E" <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
CC: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups
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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:36:01 +0000
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Hi, it has come to my attention that the tone of this message may have been inappropriate. I apologize to the lists in general and to Bert in particular for invoking a company name in a non-technical way. Instead, I believe the documents can stand on their technical merit, and will continue to work with the IETF to gain consensus. Thanks - Fred From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Templin (US), Fred L Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 2:04 PM To: Manfredi (US), Albert E <albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com>; Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; v6ops@ietf.org; IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Bert, read draft-templin-* (several drafts); they all say Boeing on them. Please get a grip and understand that whether you like them or not they are products of our company, and they are going to move forward. Thanks - Fred From: Manfredi (US), Albert E Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 1:15 PM To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com<mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>>; Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com<mailto:mellon@fugue.com>> Cc: IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>>; v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com<mailto:bob.hinden@gmail.com>> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Templin (US), Fred L Hi Ted, But there’s no reason for an overlay topology. The question is, is there a way for it to know which stations to send the multicast too? If so, then it should just iterate across that set of stations using unicast, which is a lot faster. If not, then it probably has no choice but to broadcast. Sorry if these are naive questions—I haven’t really dug around in the details of how WiFi routers do multicast, so I have just enough knowledge to appear really ignorant. With my NBMA case, there is a an overlay routing system which has proactive full knowledge of all active nodes on the link and knows how to unicast-forward to any of those nodes at any time. In the WiFi base station case, unless there is some way for the base station to learn the list of active nodes on the link then broadcast is the last resort. Or, the base station could start out life with a NULL topology table and then add new nodes as it receives multicasts. Then, as its topology table grows, it may be able to eventually start to do unicasts to those nodes it has previously learned about from broadcasts – a learning bridge, in other words – useful? What’s the expression? “What goes around comes around,” I think. This is all very reminiscent of IP over ATM, as described in RFC 2225 and RFC 2226. There are servers, MARS, to emulate broadcast, using sequential unicasts. The problem is that with CLIP (classical IP over ATM), this sort of thing was compulsory even in small networks, so it is cumbersome. ATM didn’t survive, in large measure, because it was less than ideal for carrying IP packets. In a parallel universe, a universe in which this IP thing was not developed concurrently with Ethernet, it might do well. Large broadcast or multicast domains are still a bad idea. Having to go NBMA for everything, to mitigate the large broadcast domain problem, is like having stuck with CLIP, to this day. It didn’t happen. For targeted, special purposes, that’s something different. Bert
- I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additional… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Jen Linkova
- RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … joel jaeggli
- RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 - additi… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Bob Hinden
- Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Tony Finch
- draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Ted Lemon
- RE: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Bjoern A. Zeeb
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Owen DeLong
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Christian Huitema
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Michael Richardson
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf… Michael Richardson
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Michael Richardson
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-grand-01 … Mark Smith
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Improving ND security Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Fernando Gont
- Re: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- RE: [v6ops] [EXTERNAL] Re: Improving ND security Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Bob Hinden
- distributed vs centralized approaches to ND secur… Michael Richardson
- Re: distributed vs centralized approaches to ND s… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Bob Hinden
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Nick Hilliard
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Bob Hinden
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Michael Richardson
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Ted Lemon
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand … Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Warren Kumari
- RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Fred Baker
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- RE: [EXTERNAL] [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : sa… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Philip Homburg
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Gyan Mishra
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-6man-grand : saving lookups Pascal Thubert (pthubert)