Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> Fri, 17 November 2017 08:38 UTC
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Subject: Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements?
From: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:38:02 +0800
Cc: Mohamed Boucadair <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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References: <m1eEGbJ-0000EhC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <D43E103C-27B8-48CF-B801-ACCF9B42533E@employees.org> <m1eEHPS-0000FyC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <59B0BEC0-D791-4D75-906C-84C5E423291B@employees.org> <m1eEIGX-0000FjC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <73231F8D-498E-4C77-8DA8-044365368FC9@isc.org> <CAKD1Yr1aFwF_qZVp5HbRbKzcOGqn==MRe_ewaA8Qc8t3+CVu_Q@mail.gmail.com> <44A862B7-7182-4B3A-B46E-73065FC4D852@isc.org> <D42D8D7A-6D19-4862-9BB3-4913058A83B6@employees.org> <CAFU7BARCLq9eznccEtkdnKPAtKNT7Mf1bW0uZByPvxtiSrv6EQ@mail.gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300A07AD68@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <CAFU7BARoXgodiTJfTGc1dUfQ8-ER_r8UOE1c3h-+G0KTeCgBew@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/vM8dVpiziha5dC2BhXMGrcI_vi0>
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Tore Anderson has a multiple prefix installation. Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways... > On Nov 17, 2017, at 4:30 PM, Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote: >>> IMHO the optimal solution is: >>> - the network SHOULD provide a host with NAT64 prefix information in >>> RA (I do not believe that information needs to be duplicated in DHCP >>> at all); >> >> [Med] Please check: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7051#section-5.7.3 > > Thanks for pointing this out. To be honest I disagree with what that > section says. > I'm trying to refrain from participating 'SLAAC vs DHCPv6' so I will > not mention all those issues with multihoming for example but.... > If you are saying that the prefix should not be distributed via RAs > because it needs to be configured on routers, then what about DNS > servers and SLAAC prefixes themselves? > There are SLAAC-only networks out there while RFC7934 does not > recommend DHCPv6 as the only way to configure clients. > So between those two RA does look like a better way. > >> Things may get complex if multiple NSPs are used for load-balancing or if destination based NAT64s are deployed. A list of issues is elaborated in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7225#section-3.1 > > It's more like v6ops question but I'm really curious if multiple > prefixes scenario is real. > RA option might contain multiple prefixes anyway. > >>>>> On 15 Nov 2017, at 08:06, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 15 Nov 2017, at 3:40 am, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 6:46 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote: >>>>>> Is there any reason to run DNS64 at all these days? ipv4only.arpa can >>> be a preconfigured >>>>>> zone which allows CLAT to get its mapping. All the phones have CLAT >>> support. >>>>>> >>>>>> That's an interesting idea. It would work in theory, but such a >>> network would completely break devices that don't support 464xlat. That >>> gives up one of the major advantages of NAT64/DNS64, which is that it's a >>> 90% solution even just by itself - yes, IPv4-only applications and address >>> literals exist, but most simple client/server applications Just Work >>> behind it. >>>>> >>>>> And that 90% “solution” has lots of down sides. It basically requires >>> EVERY DNS VALIDATOR ON >>>>> THE PLANET TO SUPPORT DNS64 JUST IN CASE IT IS USED BEHIND A DNS64 >>> SERVER. >>>>> >>>>> DNS64/NAT64 was presented as NOT REQUIRING node changes when first >>> mooted. It keeps on >>>>> requiring more and more highly invasive node changes to support. It >>> was from the very beginning >>>>> bad engineering. To get IPv4 as a service some node changes are >>> required. Lets make sure they >>>>> are MINIMAL ones. >>>>> >>>>> Just for the record DNSSEC validators need to send BOTH CD=0 and CD=1 >>> queries to get answers >>>>> though a upstream VALIDATING server which includes a VALIDATING DNS64 >>> server as CD=0 and >>>>> CD=1 address different DNSSEC threats. I tried very hard to point that >>> out when RFC 6147 was >>>>> being written but the working group decide that CD indicated whether >>> the client was validating or >>>>> not. There is NO SUCH INDICATION in a DNS message. >>>>> >>>>> If a query arrives at a vDNS64 device with the "Checking Disabled" >>>>> (CD) bit set, it is an indication that the querying agent wants all >>>>> the validation data so it can do checking itself. By local policy, >>>>> vDNS64 could still validate, but it must return all data to the >>>>> querying agent anyway. >>>>> >>>>> CD=0 queries causes the upstream validating servers to reject incoming >>> spoofed answers >>>>> or stale answers (this is a common operational problem). >>>>> >>>>> CD=1 queries allow the validation to succeed when the upstream >>> validator has a bad trust >>>>> anchor or a bad clock which is rejecting legitimate answers. >>>>> >>>>> A validating client can’t just send CD=1 queries as the upstream >>> validator doesn’t kick in. >>>>> The upstream validator can lock onto a stale answer source. It needs >>> to send CD=0 queries >>>>> on validation failure to force the upstream validator to try multiple >>> sources. >>>>> >>>>> A validating client can’t just send CD=0. It needs to send CD=1 on >>> SERVFAIL in case the >>>>> upstream validator has a bad trust anchor (likely with the upcoming >>> root KSK roll) or has >>>>> a bad clock (these usually get fixed fast). >>>>> >>>>> Now to get a answer from a signed zone with servers with stale answers >>> a validatiing DNS64 client >>>>> needs to send: >>>>> >>>>> a) send CD=1 and validation failure send CD=0 then on AAAA validation >>> failure send CD=1 and >>>>> hope the TTL was not 0 and that is not cachable and there is no >>> assurance that you won’t get >>>>> a answer from a stale source. >>>>> >>>>> or >>>>> >>>>> b) send CD=0 and on validation failure of the AAAA send CD=1 and hope >>> the TTL was not 0 as >>>>> that is not cachable and there is no assurance that you won’t get a >>> answer from a stale source. >>>>> >>>>> TTL=0 answers exist. >>>>> >>>>> Note none of this is documented in a RFC. You have to understand how >>> both DNSSEC and DNS64 work to >>>>> realise this. >>>>> >>>>> IPV4ONLY.ARPA is currently has a secure delegation which breaks prefix >>> discover for DNS VALIDATORS. >>>>> Note “ad” is set in the flags. Yes, I’ve submitted a errata. Yes, >>> I’ve opened a ticket to get it fixed but >>>>> based on past experience that could take months if it happens at all. >>> You will note that the recursive >>>>> server is running on the loopback interface so all DNS answers are >>> being validated here. >>>>> >>>>> [rock:bind9/bin/named] marka% dig IPV4ONLY.ARPA >>>>> ;; BADCOOKIE, retrying. >>>>> >>>>> ; <<>> DiG 9.12.0b2+hotspot+add-prefetch+marka <<>> IPV4ONLY.ARPA >>>>> ;; global options: +cmd >>>>> ;; Got answer: >>>>> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 8504 >>>>> ;; flags: qr rd ra ad; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 1 >>>>> >>>>> ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION: >>>>> ; EDNS: version: 0, flags:; udp: 4096 >>>>> ; COOKIE: 7dbf8beb79be47a09eb5313d5a0b776f4fae3aa6931d9583 (good) >>>>> ;; QUESTION SECTION: >>>>> ;IPV4ONLY.ARPA. IN A >>>>> >>>>> ;; ANSWER SECTION: >>>>> ipv4only.arpa. 26574 IN A 192.0.0.171 >>>>> ipv4only.arpa. 26574 IN A 192.0.0.170 >>>>> >>>>> ;; Query time: 0 msec >>>>> ;; SERVER: 127.0.0.1#53(127.0.0.1) >>>>> ;; WHEN: Wed Nov 15 10:08:31 AEDT 2017 >>>>> ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 115 >>>>> >>>>> [rock:bind9/bin/named] marka% >>>>> >>>>>> It's not true that all phones have clat support. Notably, Apple not >>> only does not support it but appears ideologically opposed to it on the >>> grounds that it does not have a good exit strategy (because it makes it >>> possible to run IPv4-only apps forever). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Mark Andrews, ISC >>>>> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia >>>>> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > --------------------------------------------------------------------
- IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Rajiv Asati (rajiva)
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 require… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv4 only apps [was: IPv6 only host NAT64 req… Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Philip Homburg
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Erik Kline
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 re… Tim Chown
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Ca By
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Tim Chown
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Ca By
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Michael Richardson
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… james woodyatt
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Fred Baker
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Fred Baker
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Tim Chown
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? james woodyatt
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: PCP, and 6434bis (was Re: IPv6 only host NAT6… Fernando Gont
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Simon Hobson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Michael Richardson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? mohamed.boucadair
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lee Howard
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Lee Howard
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ole Troan
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mark Andrews
- RE: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Masanobu Kawashima
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Jen Linkova
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ola Thoresen
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Ca By
- Re: IPv6 only host NAT64 requirements? Brian E Carpenter