Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
Susan Hares <susan.hares@huawei.com> Fri, 10 August 2012 01:56 UTC
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From: Susan Hares <susan.hares@huawei.com>
To: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>, Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com>
Thread-Topic: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
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Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 01:51:36 +0000
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Cc: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@juniper.net>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@juniper.net>, Lenny Giuliano <lenny@juniper.net>, "irs-discuss@ietf.org" <irs-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments
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Gert: I'm interested in discussing the theory of the network management. Tradition Network management (ISO documents) looked at such generic ideas as configuration, performance, fault management, and monitoring. Which NM are you implying here? Configuration included download plus transactional (roll forward/roll-back). Your description does not match the current status of the IGPs or BGP implementations. Where do you place the Graceful-Restart or Hitless Restart or High availability work? Do you place this in a PCE or a stateful PCE? Sue -----Original Message----- From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net] Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 1:00 PM To: Thomas Nadeau; Susan Hares Cc: Thomas Nadeau; Lenny Giuliano; Alia Atlas; irs-discuss@ietf.org Subject: RE: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Susan, The difference of a NP-plane compared to control and management planes can best be explained by describing a power cycle: - The Management plane supervises (Monitoring and Alarms), and when configuring, it creates persistent state in the switching element as well as in the Management plane itself. In other words state that remains in the box (switch and NMS) even after a power cycle. - A control plane behaves differently. After a power cycle the switching element needs to re-learn state from its peers. - The NPP is a strange hybrid, it can create persistent state in the NPP but not in the switching element. In other words, if you re-start the NPP, all configuration comes up as of before. If you re-start the switching element, it needs to synch up with NPP. A nice example for a NPP function is e.g. a centralized PCE server. You can create a lot of persistent rules and parameters there on how to calculate the path. Those parameters will remain in the PCE-server even after a PCE-server re-start. Yet the PCE doesn't create persistent information in the switching elements. If those re-start, they'll have to re-synch. I am well aware that in the past folks positioned various elements (PCE, RR, IRS, ...) either as part of the Control Plane or a part of the management plane. And yes, positioning is not an exact science. Nevertheless I believe that it is now time to give a class name to those vagabonding objects. -- Gert -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com] Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 9:38 AM To: Susan Hares Cc: Gert Grammel; Thomas Nadeau; Lenny Giuliano; Alia Atlas; irs-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments We intended for irs to need both read and write capabilities, hence our use of "bidirectional" in describing the interface characteristics in the problem statement. One big difference between existing "network management" and what we are trying to specify now is real-time transactional capabilities. Tom On Aug 9, 2012, at 10:57 AM, Susan Hares <susan.hares@huawei.com> wrote: > Gert: > > How do you characterize network management? Traditionally network management has been viewed in the IETF in two streams: monitoring (active or passive) and configuration. > > What parts of these features do you think the IRS system needs to avoid? > > Sue > > -----Original Message----- > From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gert Grammel > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 6:41 PM > To: Thomas Nadeau; Lenny Giuliano; Alia Atlas > Cc: irs-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments > > Tom, > > It is confusing to understand whether IRS belongs to a new network management plane or if it's more of a control plane extension. The draft wisely avoids this classification. > To me IRS appears to be a completely different beast which should best be characterized as 'Network Programming Plane' NPP. > It neither aims to do full provisioning (as a management plane would do) nor aims to replace routing (as a control plane would do). > Hence we better name the baby NPP -- thereby avoiding any linkage to taxation. > > > Gert > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org <irs-discuss-bounces@ietf.org> > To: Lenny Giuliano; Alia Atlas > Cc: irs-discuss@ietf.org <irs-discuss@ietf.org> > Sent: Tue Jul 31 01:50:40 2012 > Subject: Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments > > > [Re-adding IRS] > > Thank you for reviewing and the comments. We will incorporate the > edits in the next rev. > > --Tom > > > On 7/30/12 5:04 PM, "Lenny Giuliano" <lenny@juniper.net> wrote: > >> >> Minor points: >> >> -section 4, para 2, 3rd sentence, "Howeve,r" >> >> -4.1.3 "There is no bidirectional programmatic interface to add, modify, >> remove or read state from the multicast RIB." >> -How is this unique to mcast? Couldn't you say the same thing >> about unicast? >> >> -4.1.3 "The multicast state added need not match to well-known protocol >> installed state. For instance, traffic received on an specified set, >> or all, interfaces that is destined to a particular prefix from all >> sources or a particular prefix could be subject to the specified >> replication." >> -Not clear to me at all what this para is saying. >> >> -"IRS"- you may want to select a different acronym that isn't related >> to something as unpopular as taxation (something we learned with AMT). >> Maybe >> RSI instead... >> >> Overall, I found the doc to be clearly written and straightforward. >> Sounds like Openflow for routers. Not sure if it's intentional that >> you didn't mention Openflow, but it did seem like an elephant in the >> room as I was reading thru. Also, I did wonder what was new and >> novel here, as this sounded like our SDK which has been around for >> years. >> >> >> -Lenny > > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss > _______________________________________________ > irs-discuss mailing list > irs-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/irs-discuss >
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Gert Grammel
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Gert Grammel
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Lin Han
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Lin Han
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Lin Han
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Susan Hares
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Robert Raszuk
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Gert Grammel
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Scott Whyte
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Susan Hares
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Gert Grammel
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Scott Whyte
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Olen Stokes
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments David Lake (dlake)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments David Lake (dlake)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Olen Stokes
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments David Lake (dlake)
- Re: [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Olen Stokes
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Robert Raszuk
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments UTTARO, JAMES
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Lin Han
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Ramon Casellas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Shah, Himanshu
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- [irs-discuss] 答复: IRS comments Mach Chen
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] 答复: IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: IRS comments Mach Chen
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: IRS comments Alia Atlas
- [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: 答复: IRS comments Mach Chen
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: IRS comments Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Acee Lindem
- Re: [irs-discuss] 答复: 答复: IRS comments Susan Hares
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Dutta, Pranjal K (Pranjal)
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Edward Crabbe
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Alia Atlas
- Re: [irs-discuss] IRS comments Thomas Nadeau