[Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63

[Lang Gérard <[e-mail]>]

Dear All,

1-I personally have no marked preference between North-West (or another equivalent way to write the same) or West.
But, in my quality of statistician (and of member of the french national geographical information council [CNIG]) I am indebted to write that West is a better choice, because inside the official NUTS (Nomenclature des Unités Territoriales pour la Statistique/  Classification of territorial units for statistical use) that is defined and used by the European Union and by the french national statistical institute (INSEE), we find that under the entry "France" (level 0) we have an entry "OUEST/WEST" (level 1) consisting of three official administrative french regions being entries of level 2: "Pays de la Loire", "Bretagne" and "Poitou-Charentes".
So that the region "Bretagne/Brittany" is included in the "french entry" OUEST/WEST.  Some historians would not accept that the administrative region "Bretagne" is veritably all of the historic territory of the "Duché de Bretagne", because this concept includes not only the four departments forming the today official administrative region Bretagne, but also a fifth one "Loire-Atlantique", that is adminstratively included inside the administrative region "Pays de la Loire". But, as Pays de la Loire is also included in WEST, and moreover the territory corresponding to "Loire-Atlantique is geographically  located south and not north from the other four "départements bretons", it is logical to accept that West is a little better than Northwest for breton !

2-On another side, I could absolutely not accept the proposition " Atlantic coast of France" for breton.
The reason is that there is an international accepted nomenclature for "Names and Limits of Oceans and Seas", provided by IHO (International Hydrographic Organization)
That is an international intergouvernemental organisation located in Monaco.
In this nomenclature (that provides for an official classification of the whole maritime domain of the earth and constitutes a natural complement for ISO 3166, that provides for an official coding of the whole land domain of the earth), the whole maritime domain of the world is divided between the five Oceans (Arctic, Antarctic, Atlantic, Indian, Pacific) and each Ocean is divided in several parts, some of them being recognized as Seas.

So that, the french coastal Atlantic is very rich, including coasts of the Metropolitan France (including coasts inside the following Atlantic divisions:inside Mediterranean Sea, like Corsica, inside North Sea and La Manche [English Channel], inside Celtic Sea,  and inside Golfe de Gascogne [and following the IHO classification, the coasts of Bretagne are divided between three touching Seas or divisions: La Manche, Celtic Sea and Golfe de Gascogne]), but also the coasts of the Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon, Saint-Martin, Saint-Barthélemy, Guadeloupe and Martinique Islands ( all situated  inside the North Atlantic part of the Atlantic Ocean, following the IHO classification) and also the coasts of french Guyana (situated inside the South Atlantic part of the Atlantic Ocean, following the IHO classification).
Moreover, I already explained that AFNOR published in september 2006 a french experimental standard XP-Z44-020 "Code pour la representation des noms des océans et des mers" (Code for the representation of names of Oceans and Seas) that also provides for a coding of all entries inside the IHO classification.

Bien cordialement.
Gérard LANG

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Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established
      by 4646 (CE Whitehead)
   2. Re: Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established
      by 4646 (Phillips, Addison)
   3. Re: Applicability Statement for the IANA registry	established
      by 4646 (Mark Davis ?)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:26:14 -0400
From: CE Whitehead <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry
	established by 4646
To: <[e-mail]>
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



Hi, if the only problem is the use of the terms, 'fallback' and 'backup' I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternative languages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices'  maybe; I don't know about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic coast?:

 

"It does not contain information about appropriate alternative languages (in language negotiation).  A good alternate might in fact be linguistically unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate for.  This is because the preference for a particular language alternate is often the result of outside factors--such as geograpphy, history, or culture--factors which may vary from user to user.   For example, most people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in Brittany/on a portion of the Atlantic coast of France) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available."

 

(hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly).

 

Best,

 

C. E. Whitehead

[e-mail] 


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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:35:01 -0700
From: "Phillips, Addison" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry
	established by 4646
To: CE Whitehead <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]"
	<[e-mail]>
Message-ID:
	<[e-mail]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation altogether. It really belongs in a discussion of matching.

If we must have it, it is useful to glance at RFC 4647. The term ?fallback? is used extensively with the Lookup matching scheme. But there is a very precise term we?ve established when talking about the ?fallback in extremis?: Section 3.4.1 uses ?default value? (and there is a long discussion there of the topic). If we must have something like this text, then perhaps:

--

    - It does not contain information about appropriate default values to use in language matching [RFC 4647, Section 3.4.1]. A good default value for a particular language request might be linguistically unrelated to the languages specified in the request. For example, people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in western France) might prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available.
--

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

From: CE Whitehead [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:26 PM
To: [e-mail]
Cc: [e-mail]; Phillips, Addison
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646


Hi, if the only problem is the use of the terms, 'fallback' and 'backup' I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternative languages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices'  maybe; I don't know about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic coast?:

"It does not contain information about appropriate alternative languages (in language negotiation).  A good alternate might in fact be linguistically unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate for.  This is because the preference for a particular language alternate is often the result of outside factors--such as geograpphy, history, or culture--factors which may vary from user to user.   For example, most people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in Brittany/on a portion of the Atlantic coast of France) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available."

(hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly).

Best,

C. E. Whitehead
[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>

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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:39:58 -0700
From: Mark Davis ? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry
	established by 4646
To: "Phillips, Addison" <[e-mail]>
Cc: CE Whitehead <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]"
	<[e-mail]>
Message-ID:
	<[e-mail]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I also support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation; it isn't needed, and it is late in the game for such changes.

Mark


On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 17:35, Phillips, Addison <[e-mail]> wrote:

>  I support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation altogether.
> It really belongs in a discussion of matching.
>
>
>
> If we must have it, it is useful to glance at RFC 4647. The term ?fallback?
> is used extensively with the Lookup matching scheme. But there is a 
> very precise term we?ve established when talking about the ?fallback 
> in
> extremis?: Section 3.4.1 uses ?default value? (and there is a long 
> discussion there of the topic). If we must have something like this 
> text, then perhaps:
>
>
>
> --
>
>     - It does not contain information about appropriate default values 
> to use in language matching [RFC 4647, Section 3.4.1]. A good default 
> value for a particular language request might be linguistically 
> unrelated to the languages specified in the request. For example, 
> people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in western France) might 
> prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available.
>
> --
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* CE Whitehead [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:26 PM
> *To:* [e-mail]
> *Cc:* [e-mail]; Phillips, Addison
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry 
> established by 4646
>
>
>
>
> Hi, if the only problem is the use of the terms, 'fallback' and 'backup'
> I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternative 
> languages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices'  maybe; I 
> don't know about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic coast?:
>
> "It does not contain information about appropriate alternative 
> languages (in language negotiation).  A good alternate might in fact 
> be linguistically unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate 
> for.  This is because the preference for a particular language 
> alternate is often the result of outside factors--such as geograpphy, history, or culture--factors which may
> vary from user to user.   For example, most people who use Breton (a Celtic
> language used in Brittany/on a portion of the Atlantic coast of 
> France) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) 
> if Breton isn't available."
>
> (hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly).
>
> Best,
>
> C. E. Whitehead
> [e-mail]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
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