Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about the multipath extension milestone

Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com> Tue, 06 October 2020 19:17 UTC

Return-Path: <tpauly@apple.com>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4303A0B12 for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:17:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -3.301
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R3dDU1JmRSsu for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:17:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [17.171.2.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46D5F3A0992 for <quic@ietf.org>; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:17:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 096JCTS1039000; Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:17:39 -0700
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=content-type : mime-version : subject : from : in-reply-to : date : cc : content-transfer-encoding : message-id : references : to; s=20180706; bh=fkxoYaUXkLDTgEwM+c2NW8kxWNjAP3X841FzCFXPFqY=; b=JrCUzj1B/SMSnN3VbrTiNfxMDHlVQ0LaL1WYXiHzwJhhmMr0KADOl9NVk35lM3LDTtjh g8WsSyuwBwmAIl9Gqk2WHbkq9jVZRgAd4v1APwqjhe82t3Bml7sQhL31EMRCCPvfulvl X79MC/kh+bXQUZeFxknIM26gEgWE98nBWol6vTh8iFqOmB7Al9ZQ0XqudTxXeE1foi8a Mr2sbzpTnW/LOEhY8INeWCpDzJbUf/xpEerDEmvjDQ1OZk434qBJc8M09okqqjUSft1R VRksbofBV0ZAX+qVb6EJ9oaHbUjH+On3051bhHbBJyLPfvk5qWKl/uWVmAFP1sKTsoaa TQ==
Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.150]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com with ESMTP id 33xr9u2mr5-4 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 06 Oct 2020 12:17:39 -0700
Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.15]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.6.20200729 64bit (built Jul 29 2020)) with ESMTPS id <0QHS00XTTO9EFMO0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Tue, 06 Oct 2020 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.6.20200729 64bit (built Jul 29 2020)) id <0QHS00000N9NQ700@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Tue, 06 Oct 2020 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Va-A:
X-Va-T-CD: 8154b23b3511e33f7d3c4e1c60118686
X-Va-E-CD: 5a426fcd84d309aa980436d93e62bed7
X-Va-R-CD: 7c2df5f5b9b587ad0a021309852da0e2
X-Va-CD: 0
X-Va-ID: ab17a7cc-c7b3-479c-9e4c-46beb1fa2bc0
X-V-A:
X-V-T-CD: 8154b23b3511e33f7d3c4e1c60118686
X-V-E-CD: 5a426fcd84d309aa980436d93e62bed7
X-V-R-CD: 7c2df5f5b9b587ad0a021309852da0e2
X-V-CD: 0
X-V-ID: ef682a25-da88-49df-861e-ddf18fa59d8d
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-10-06_12:2020-10-06, 2020-10-06 signatures=0
Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown [17.235.4.179]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.6.20200729 64bit (built Jul 29 2020)) with ESMTPSA id <0QHS010ERO9CNN00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Tue, 06 Oct 2020 12:17:37 -0700 (PDT)
Content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.0.3.2.26\))
Subject: Re: Preparing for discussion on what to do about the multipath extension milestone
From: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
In-reply-to: <CAKcm_gPC9og-YxOr1KzVcWQqc_GSyfRBVFWEfMC3ynrEfp2WKw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 12:17:35 -0700
Cc: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>, Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Message-id: <4C7BAD3A-6858-4421-83CA-629866703A51@apple.com>
References: <F0A5E38D-4117-4729-BFF8-72D97CAA9908@eggert.org> <CAKKJt-e=+XLZhNWqaG9YSLTRqyQRvDc-dagUSkFwHOByFwZ++Q@mail.gmail.com> <78651438-2fce-ba67-4f44-4228bbc79a75@uclouvain.be> <CADdTf+hOACZ1x=d8SV-aX0f3vc+_fyqTziRqi5gi+nJgppaz8A@mail.gmail.com> <CAKcm_gNF=0gwrPt=Mr1P=dF_-wmXfz-OJkavFSDe1qrXFeMa4A@mail.gmail.com> <20201002164854.GA2124@MacBook-Pro.local> <CADdTf+heu4DGT8PsF0yL1cknTCB0CiHJ_jBwXZ86ccxL6740qA@mail.gmail.com> <CALGR9ob39AhBQq5kt1tsBp6b3EHy8Aq-PkT_tSX3_hM-u9kYnQ@mail.gmail.com> <20201002232028.GG2124@MacBook-Pro.local> <CALGR9oYUcTeBjNba6xAj0YLJwQc772u6K4H=VBKbG6cRaAjUUQ@mail.gmail.com> <20201003000902.GA94326@MacBook-Pro.local> <CALGR9oYZWxfE602b2YgHbyd-rz6KvCRtR5q4qY2Vjdiqmmy0NQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAKcm_gPC9og-YxOr1KzVcWQqc_GSyfRBVFWEfMC3ynrEfp2WKw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.0.3.2.26)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-10-06_12:2020-10-06, 2020-10-06 signatures=0
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/7Z-0yAPqAImtUm2wHqwqBC7an4E>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 19:17:42 -0000

> On Oct 4, 2020, at 7:56 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> 
> Is the lack of MP-QUIC likely to cause QUIC to be disabled for certain key use cases(ie: Siri and Apple Music), or can existing connection migration be made to work?

Since multipath support has proved to be a key part of optimizing performance for services like Siri and Apple Music, we wouldn’t plan to move Siri or Apple Music off of MPTCP onto QUIC until QUIC has support for “full” multipath. (This of course doesn’t affect adopting QUIC for applications that don’t use MPTCP to start with.)

Thanks,
Tommy

> 
> For example, I can imagine working around true multipath by only using one path at once, but sending PATH_CHALLENGE on the other path to probe reliability and/or RTT.  Or even sending identical packets(ie: a request) on both paths and the receiver will naturally respond on the path the packet is received first and drop the other packet as a duplicate.
> 
> My key takeaway from the multipath scheduler papers I've read is that most of the performance gains are obtained by always sending on the faster of the two available paths, and in a large set of circumstances, nothing should be sent on the slower path.
> 
> Thanks, Ian
>