Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension work)
Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com> Sat, 21 December 2019 00:44 UTC
Return-Path: <tpauly@apple.com>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F541209EB for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 16:44:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id itOdsUX66wol for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 16:44:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [17.171.2.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB80D1209EA for <quic@ietf.org>; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 16:44:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBKDpYqW008750; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:52:31 -0800
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=sender : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : from : mime-version : subject : date : message-id : references : cc : in-reply-to : to; s=20180706; bh=kRBCtbMxw9petfnheTZIXQBMzZBcCLrdTEm4Z3TPV9s=; b=hDPFnmW7j2FNRa3iwlzhE8CyxxQ/3tXLaPmskHKuiygiR/kfNAW0E+PnPOoVPCuvhN0H a8c0UgnplxJXf8pRF0FevNXbQuq5ycnBKEq+QA3dWroC4onMa5d59I+CsGlnoFlRSXo6 lYAqYHm823eY53kL7Gv43QHGxgTLf3dF5z9YxEPXV7i06mwrVlq6zVask+zieUPRse7R rK2rPx6eGptnI5TmM/24iHjWwSZWgYGwyCFeVl5qqQLNw2LiL15VWWPKORmj/CmBcUAj a1AB5GYIx42MxrFOGH5WQxNPTmwFUcLX7dLVdNaH9EvHm5tMt/qz2XDBF4cz4OT6F1a4 jg==
Received: from ma1-mtap-s02.corp.apple.com (ma1-mtap-s02.corp.apple.com [17.40.76.6]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com with ESMTP id 2wyyq65yqr-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:52:31 -0800
Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com [17.128.115.122]) by ma1-mtap-s02.corp.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPS id <0Q2T009WJD7I8C20@ma1-mtap-s02.corp.apple.com>; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:52:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from process_milters-daemon.nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com by nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) id <0Q2T00I00D5M9V00@nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com>; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:52:30 -0800 (PST)
X-Va-A:
X-Va-T-CD: 0d6aa46162a692e984a2a4fe4c106fe4
X-Va-E-CD: ba5626c798f99efe2017564e1f54c4e7
X-Va-R-CD: bde96df6079e3430d6d82a0c96bb5e3e
X-Va-CD: 0
X-Va-ID: 7a2e6d49-13fa-4fbc-9e78-a1bb10499c3f
X-V-A:
X-V-T-CD: 0d6aa46162a692e984a2a4fe4c106fe4
X-V-E-CD: ba5626c798f99efe2017564e1f54c4e7
X-V-R-CD: bde96df6079e3430d6d82a0c96bb5e3e
X-V-CD: 0
X-V-ID: 96cefc5a-1991-4f67-82fb-24f27b7d3baa
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2019-12-20_03:,, signatures=0
Received: from [17.234.81.189] (unknown [17.234.81.189]) by nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPSA id <0Q2T005T0D7IK040@nwk-mmpp-sz10.apple.com>; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:52:30 -0800 (PST)
Sender: tpauly@apple.com
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail-298D3B37-0E55-4B27-ACC4-2C76EBDFE09C"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
From: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
MIME-version: 1.0 (1.0)
Subject: Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension work)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:52:29 -0800
Message-id: <8EC91F90-2799-48EF-B083-D9C32F2D28F0@apple.com>
References: <D9AB44F9-8EBA-42F7-957F-69622C0681CE@tessares.net>
Cc: Ryan Hamilton <rch@google.com>, Quentin De Coninck <quentin.deconinck@uclouvain.be>, Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
In-reply-to: <D9AB44F9-8EBA-42F7-957F-69622C0681CE@tessares.net>
To: Olivier Bonaventure <olivier.bonaventure@tessares.net>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18A181)
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-12-20_03:, , signatures=0
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/AK3S3hOvpfzp_RfdMf4FeDbE09E>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 00:44:48 -0000
> On Dec 20, 2019, at 5:30 AM, Olivier Bonaventure <olivier.bonaventure@tessares.net> wrote: > > Ryan, > >>> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 10:40 AM Olivier Bonaventure <olivier.bonaventure@tessares.net> wrote: >>> [snip] >>> >>> A second use case is for mobile devices that need to preserve connectivity while switching from one wireless network to another. When such a device detects another wireless network, it needs to bet whether migrating the connection to the new network would improve performance. With a multipath transport, there is no need to bet as the transport will automatically select the best performing network. Apple’s deployment of Multipath TCP is a good example of the benefits of such a multipath strategy. >> >> FWIW, QUIC connection migration was designed to do explicitly this and has been very successful in Google's deployment. I don't think this is a good justification for multipath QUIC. >> > > Connection migration works well when there is a clear indication that one path is clearly broken. Unfortunately, there are many practical situations where paths are partially broken or experience high packet losses and this is where multipath really brings benefits. > > Olivier This depends on how migration is implemented, I expect. If an implementation only sends probes or migrates when it encounters significant loss or delay (or a loss of connectivity) on one path, then it can be too slow to react. The same goes for very conservative modes of MPTCP. However, with path probing, a QUIC migration implementation can track and monitor multiple paths, and can switch between them quickly if it wants. It can do this for any reason, either indication of slight degradation of loss, or just because the probes on one path seem to return fastest at the moment. Fundamentally, the capabilities that “full” multipath enable on top of migration are: - Bandwidth aggregation - Separated congestion control - The ability to split traffic (such as on a stream basis) across paths to take advantage of different link characteristics These are all good to enable, but these are not the core benefits that devices right now are gaining from multipath, as much as the ability to migrate with agility. We should absolutely work on multipath, but it may be good to see how shipping migration (the first half of multipath) goes first. Best, Tommy > > > Disclaimer: https://www.tessares.net/mail-disclaimer/ > >
- Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Jana Iyengar
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Martin Thomson
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Salz, Rich
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work David Schinazi
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work David Schinazi
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Olivier Bonaventure
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension w… Lars Eggert
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Christian Huitema
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Mike Bishop
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Kuhn Nicolas
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Ian Swett
- Re: [EToSat] Re-chartering for extension work Christian Huitema
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Jana Iyengar
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- RE: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Florin Baboescu
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Ryan Hamilton
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Jana Iyengar
- RE:(2) Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for exte… Madhan Raj Kanagarathinam
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Kuhn Nicolas
- RE: [EToSat] Re-chartering for extension work Kuhn Nicolas
- Re: Multipath Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Tommy Pauly
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Jana Iyengar
- RE: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… tim.costello
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Martin Thomson
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mirja Kuehlewind
- QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Tommy Pauly
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Salz, Rich
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Eric Rescorla
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Ted Hardie
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Jari Arkko
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Magnus Westerlund
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Stephen Farrell
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Christian Huitema
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Daniel Migault
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Salz, Rich
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Christopher Wood
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Ian Swett
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Vidhi Goel
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Paul Vixie
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Kline
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Martin Duke
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Paul Vixie
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Lucas Pardue
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Kline
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Martin Thomson
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Paul Vixie