Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC?
Erik Nygren <erik+ietf@nygren.org> Thu, 06 February 2020 15:13 UTC
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From: Erik Nygren <erik+ietf@nygren.org>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 10:13:33 -0500
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Subject: Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC?
To: Daniel Migault <mglt.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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It sounds like a good path forwards might be to take the draft-huitema-quic-dnsoquic <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-dnsoquic-07> to dprive in Vancouver and/or Madrid if the authors are interested and willing? For encrypting recursive-to-authoritative I'm hopefully that we can pick one (or at most two) things as "MTI" for interop, and I suspect if we had a pros/cons matrix for the various options that a DoQ solution has a good chance as being the contender for being the preferred option for reasons stated above, as well as for other functionality that exists in QUIC that may make scaling and robustness easier for authority operators. Erik On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 9:57 AM Daniel Migault <mglt.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > I support DoQ being done here or somewhere else to prevent including the > attack surface of the web platform as well as to have a non HTTP use case > for quic. I also expect that previous work on DoT, DoH will reduce the > effort on DoQ. It is true one could question the advantages of having yet > another transport, but on the other hand, it might be better we can have > the choice now rather than later. > Yours, > Daniel > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 6:36 AM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> > wrote: > >> On 2/4/2020 4:17 PM, Tommy Pauly wrote: >> >> > My main question in doing DNS-over-QUIC is what benefit it provides >> > over DNS-over-HTTP/3 (DoH3?). DoH3 seems like a more practical >> > deployment model, since it allows relatively seamless upgrade from >> > DoH2 to DoH3, and allows a resolver to support consistent semantics on >> > both. The overhead of the HTTP layer is pretty minimal, and while I >> > appreciate the desire to define a non-HTTP protocol over QUIC, I >> > imagine there would be ones that would be more useful to adopt in the >> > near term. >> >> There are significant differences between DoQ and DoH. My main worry is >> that protocol written to run over HTTP tend to be developed on top of >> web platforms, and so you end up bringing the entire attack surface of >> the web platforms in your DNS implementation. That's OK if your DNS >> usage is directly dependent on your web traffic, for example if a >> browser is sending queries for the pages that it visits. But that's not >> so good for the resolver to authoritative scenario, in which a leaner >> protocol seems safer. >> >> But there are other issues. Look at the "M" scenario in the Quic Interop >> runner, loading 2000 small files in parallel. It turns out that several >> implementations had issues because when doing that they were hitting the >> OS limit on the number of open files. The way you control that in Quic >> is by limiting the number of open streams below the number of files that >> you can maintain open. In a web-oriented implementation of H3 and Quic, >> you will most likely do that. But you don't need to worry about that in >> the DNS scenario, because you are certainly not going to write a file >> for every DNS transaction. Doing an ad hoc application mapping avoids >> this kind of issues. >> >> -- Christian Huitema >> >> >> >> > > -- > Daniel Migault > Ericsson >
- Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Jana Iyengar
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Martin Thomson
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Salz, Rich
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work David Schinazi
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work David Schinazi
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Olivier Bonaventure
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension w… Lars Eggert
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Christian Huitema
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Mike Bishop
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Kuhn Nicolas
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Ian Swett
- Re: [EToSat] Re-chartering for extension work Christian Huitema
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Jana Iyengar
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- RE: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Florin Baboescu
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Ryan Hamilton
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Jana Iyengar
- RE:(2) Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for exte… Madhan Raj Kanagarathinam
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Kuhn Nicolas
- RE: [EToSat] Re-chartering for extension work Kuhn Nicolas
- Re: Multipath Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Tommy Pauly
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Jana Iyengar
- RE: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… tim.costello
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Martin Thomson
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mirja Kuehlewind
- QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Tommy Pauly
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Salz, Rich
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Eric Rescorla
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Ted Hardie
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Jari Arkko
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Magnus Westerlund
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Stephen Farrell
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Christian Huitema
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Daniel Migault
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Salz, Rich
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Christopher Wood
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Ian Swett
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Vidhi Goel
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Paul Vixie
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Kline
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Martin Duke
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Paul Vixie
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Lucas Pardue
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Kline
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Martin Thomson
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Paul Vixie