Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension work)
Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com> Thu, 09 January 2020 10:19 UTC
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From: Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
CC: Olivier Bonaventure <olivier.bonaventure@tessares.net>, Quentin De Coninck <quentin.deconinck@uclouvain.be>, Ryan Hamilton <rch@google.com>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension work)
Thread-Topic: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension work)
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Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 10:19:01 +0000
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Hi all, see below. From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com> Date: Saturday, 21. December 2019 at 02:49 To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com> Cc: Olivier Bonaventure <olivier.bonaventure@tessares.net>, Quentin De Coninck <quentin.deconinck@uclouvain.be>, Ryan Hamilton <rch@google.com>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org> Subject: Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension work) Fundamentally, the capabilities that “full” multipath enable on top of migration are: - Bandwidth aggregation - Separated congestion control - The ability to split traffic (such as on a stream basis) across paths to take advantage of different link characteristics These are all good to enable, but these are not the core benefits that devices right now are gaining from multipath, as much as the ability to migrate with agility. We should absolutely work on multipath, but it may be good to see how shipping migration (the first half of multipath) goes first. Yep. This has been my experience as well. I appreciate that there are some cases where simple bandwidth aggregation is useful, but there is a real question about the amount of effort required to not just standardize but also build a multipath extension for those specific use cases. The relevant question I would be looking for answers to is how many implementers will commit to implementing a multipath extension if one were to be standardized. FWIW: I also don't believe MPTCP has solved all multipath problems, not in the general case anyways. There are real ones that make actual deployment super difficult. Specifically, scheduling is a real issue. Deciding when to use multiple paths and how to use them remains an open question. The answer in my experience ends up being very application-dependent, which means that you need an application to buy in before you develop a scheduler. And without this buy-in, I couldn't justify spending the time and energy to spend time on building multipath into our implementation at least. As Tommy said, migration is already the first half of multipath support for QUIC. So I expect it will be easier to add it to QUIC than it was for TCP. I would at least be curious to spend some time on figuring out how much (or how less) effort it would be. Maybe there is also another step before going to full multipath support that could support the handover use case better, e.g. sending redundant data on multi paths or something. I think it worth think about it. However, while I would like to see this discussion starting now, I think it’s fine to wait for adoption of any draft until v1 is done. Mirja
- Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Jana Iyengar
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Martin Thomson
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Salz, Rich
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work David Schinazi
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Mark Nottingham
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work David Schinazi
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Olivier Bonaventure
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension w… Lars Eggert
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Christian Huitema
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Mike Bishop
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Kuhn Nicolas
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Ian Swett
- Re: [EToSat] Re-chartering for extension work Christian Huitema
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Jana Iyengar
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- RE: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Florin Baboescu
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Ryan Hamilton
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Jana Iyengar
- RE:(2) Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for exte… Madhan Raj Kanagarathinam
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Roni Even (A)
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lars Eggert
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Magnus Westerlund
- RE: Re-chartering for extension work Kuhn Nicolas
- RE: [EToSat] Re-chartering for extension work Kuhn Nicolas
- Re: Multipath Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Tommy Pauly
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Jana Iyengar
- RE: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… tim.costello
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Lubashev, Igor
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Martin Thomson
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Lucas Pardue
- Re: Re-chartering for extension work Dmitri Tikhonov
- Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extensi… Mirja Kuehlewind
- QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Tommy Pauly
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Salz, Rich
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Eric Rescorla
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Ted Hardie
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Jari Arkko
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Magnus Westerlund
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Stephen Farrell
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Christian Huitema
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Daniel Migault
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Salz, Rich
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Christopher Wood
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Ian Swett
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Vidhi Goel
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Paul Vixie
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Kline
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Martin Duke
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Paul Vixie
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Lucas Pardue
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Kline
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Martin Thomson
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Erik Nygren
- Re: QUIC re-chartering: include DNS-over-QUIC? Paul Vixie