Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop -- Service Orchestration and Desciption for Cloud Services
Ping Pan <ping@pingpan.org> Thu, 16 February 2012 16:20 UTC
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References: <CB62CCB4.C846D%mmorrow@cisco.com> <470D91CE-5D54-48F8-8889-438DA873A3FA@lucidvision.com> <618BE8B40039924EB9AED233D4A09C5103001E76@XMB-BGL-416.cisco.com> <CAHEV9L3EiCHutLEYHTCbPc0b439k_47mda1y1ONmwthKrQMiYw@mail.gmail.com> <CAA3wLqVpK3pYtdFPiHz7YnBrswNQnOW8R91JXdq-3ndsoL9hkA@mail.gmail.com> <CAHEV9L1vOOnr4XePym2WLfaYj96o44J9opAPO9aZ76iD5AEzVA@mail.gmail.com> <CAA3wLqW-GNw4hUS8bgpzUDnptyJU2q5i4UjrHxRn9K91vFitwg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ping Pan <ping@pingpan.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 08:19:56 -0800
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To: Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com>
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Cc: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com>, "Monique Morrow (mmorrow)" <mmorrow@cisco.com>, robert@raszuk.net, "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>, sop@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop -- Service Orchestration and Desciption for Cloud Services
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Make sense! Thanks! Ping On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 8:10 AM, Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com> wrote: > Ping, (dropped the SDNP list -- let me know if this needs to be on both) > > I think we are coming at this space from two different directions. We > were looking top down, and network focused folks looking bottoms up. Where > they meet in the middle could very well be complementary and mutually > supporting. > > I don't think there is anything in the protocol that confines it to just > DC, thought that will often be the basis of cloud services. > > Agree this is in early stages. Probably several years out to sort out the > problem space. What we are looking at with SOP is that the problem space > should also consider trade-offs between management and signaling and > control protocols (SDNP may be more of the former than the latter, whereas > we are looking at SOP to be the latter.), as well as the overall > architecture that could included OSS/BSS systems and SBCs through which > messages on the wire must transit. > > We want the cloud to scale as the number of XaaS goes from a handful to > thousands of services. That is an issue for any service provider. > > I just hope that the same wheel doesn't need to be reinvented and the > network need retrofitting every time a new service shows up. > > Make sense? > > Mike > > > > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Ping Pan <ping@pingpan.org> wrote: > >> Michael, >> >> I would ask the question somewhat differently: what can we do to enable >> more new services and applications to make the best use of the network >> resources? ;-) >> >> We are at the very early stage of cloud networking. We should not limit >> ourselves on what we may accomplish with DC's. There is no hurry to jump >> onto the solution, while the problem space itself is becoming more >> interesting and lucrative at a stunning speed. ;-) >> >> Make sense? >> >> Regards, >> >> Ping >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> The question I would ask is how many Cloud services do we think there >>> will be long run. >>> Then ask, how many times the same methods/commands will need to be >>> re-invented: Create, Update, Delete? >>> >>> Also, ask yourself, if you have to do multiple of those cloud services >>> in synchronized fashion, would a tool designed for just one of those answer >>> the mail? >>> Can we abstract out the common elements and cover and integrate >>> component parts? >>> >>> Cloud seems to be in the state the telephone company found itself 100 >>> years ago. Everything works fine so long as you do it Edison's way, or >>> Tesla's or whomever. We had to go through a monopoly state before figuring >>> out how to standardize. Looking to skip the monopoly phase this time >>> around. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Ping Pan <ping@pingpan.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah, I have read all the drafts during the DC BoF discussion. In >>>> general, this makes sense... >>>> >>>> My thinking is that we may not want to standardize the interior DC >>>> management, as each vendor has own solution. But at the same time, we need >>>> to enable applications and services to ride on top of DC resources. In >>>> other words, SDN is in the position to enable Virtual DC's, and create the >>>> interface to communicate with networking resources at abstraction level. >>>> SDN should not be viewed as the NMS for DC's. >>>> >>>> There are a lot of work to be done here, and many parts are moving. >>>> Let's work together. >>>> >>>> Ping >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela) < >>>> adalela@cisco.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> SOP has the following main goals – **** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> **1. **Fix interoperability issues with cloud services today. Main >>>>> examples are inter-cloud, hybrid-cloud, and multi-vendor cloud. All cloud >>>>> services are being enabled through proprietary APIs today, which don’t >>>>> interoperate. To interoperate across vendors, providers and customers, we >>>>> need an open standard. Ability to go across administrative domains is a >>>>> basic requirement.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> **2. **A clear separation between service-independent and >>>>> service-dependent pieces in cloud services. SOP is about >>>>> service-independent pieces. Using SOP, a variety of services could be >>>>> accessed or advertized. Separation between service-independent and >>>>> service-dependent pieces makes the scheme extensible to any type of service >>>>> – current or future.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> **3. **Create a common scheme for service orchestration that can be >>>>> used across compute, network, storage, security, applications, etc. A >>>>> common set of constructs that can be applied to any service type whether it >>>>> is infrastructure or application.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-orchestration-00**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> The above draft describes the problems SOP is aimed to address. This >>>>> is the “requirements” draft.**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> The other drafts are:**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-architecture-00 - >>>>> describes the use-cases and network deployments with the protocol**** >>>>> >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-00 - describes the >>>>> protocol’s messages **** >>>>> >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sdf-00 - describes service >>>>> naming, workflow construction, etc.**** >>>>> >>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-sop-flows-00 - describes some >>>>> message flows**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Ashish**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com] >>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 16, 2012 7:59 PM >>>>> *To:* Monique Morrow (mmorrow) >>>>> *Cc:* Ping Pan; robert@raszuk.net; sdnp; sop@ietf.org >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop -- Service >>>>> Orchestration and Desciption for Cloud Services**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Can you please explain what the purpose of SOP is and >>>>> what its goals are?**** >>>>> >>>>> People on this list have been also asking how it differs from SDN(p), >>>>> so it**** >>>>> >>>>> might be helpful to include that as well. 8)**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> --Tom**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 16, 2012, at 9:09 AM, Monique Morrow wrote:**** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> Guys >>>>> >>>>> Please join the SOP mailer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> List address: *sop@ietf.org >>>>> *Archive: *http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sop/ >>>>> *To subscribe: *https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> TIA >>>>> >>>>> Monique >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 2/14/12 10:45 PM, "Ping Pan" <ping@pingpan.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> Where does OpenStack Quantum fit? >>>>> >>>>> OpenStack Quantum is to have agents in controllers and networking >>>>> devices for the purpose of better transport. This is well within the goal >>>>> of SDN. >>>>> >>>>> Ping >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Actually I think those are quite separate problem spaces. >>>>> >>>>> SOP aim to address the requirement of cloud to cloud communication >>>>> (hybrid or multi-domain). The way I think about this is how to standardize >>>>> and synchronize OpenStack to OpenStack instrumentation signaling. The next >>>>> step would be to actually also provide cloud to cloud communication layer. >>>>> Simple example: How to launch N VMs in various data centers to be part of >>>>> common resources for customer X. >>>>> >>>>> On the contrary SDNx seems to me of totally different caliber. One way >>>>> to look at this is what and how we could use APIs exposed by existing >>>>> network control planes to define and accomplish new network services. I >>>>> quite do not see current network element control planes nor their APIs as >>>>> much relevant to cloud services. >>>>> >>>>> My own personal view ;) >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> R. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> I'd like to get some clarification (from anyone who might know or >>>>> have an opinion) on how this would interact with/be distinct from any >>>>> of the SDNP (or whatever name we decide upon) proposed work. Is this >>>>> duplication/people striking out on their own from the nascent SDNP >>>>> effort, a companion effort that became clear as we have begun >>>>> segmenting the problem space, or something else entirely? Since this >>>>> is the first I've heard of the list, I'm thinking it's a separate >>>>> effort, but I figured I would raise the topic for discussion. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Wes George >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org >>>>> [mailto:ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org<ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org>< >>>>> mailto:ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org <ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org>> >>>>> ] On Behalf Of IETF >>>>> Secretariat Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 2:25 PM To: IETF >>>>> Announcement list Cc: sop@ietf.org; Monique Morrow Subject: New >>>>> Non-WG Mailing List: sop -- Service Orchestration and Desciption for >>>>> Cloud Services >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A new IETF non-working group email list has been created. >>>>> >>>>> List address: sop@ietf.org Archive: >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sop/ < >>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sop/> To subscribe: >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop < >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop> >>>>> >>>>> Purpose: Cloud services need to interoperate across cloud providers, >>>>> service vendors and private/public domains. To enable this >>>>> interoperability, there is need for a standard wire-format for >>>>> exchanging service information. This mailing lists is for discussing >>>>> protocols, data formats and server descriptions formats that allow >>>>> cloud services to be discovered and used across private and public >>>>> domains. Using these, it would be possible to interoperate diverse >>>>> APIs and cloud services across service providers, service vendors and >>>>> service users. >>>>> >>>>> For additional information, please contact the list administrators. >>>>> _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing >>>>> list IETF-Announce@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce < >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce> >>>>> >>>>> This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable >>>>> proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or >>>>> subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is >>>>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it >>>>> is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, >>>>> you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, >>>>> copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and >>>>> attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be >>>>> unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify >>>>> the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any >>>>> copy of this E-mail and any printout. >>>>> _______________________________________________ SDNP mailing list >>>>> SDNP@lucidvision.com http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp < >>>>> http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp> >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SDNP mailing list >>>>> SDNP@lucidvision.com >>>>> http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp < >>>>> http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp> **** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SDNP mailing list >>>>> SDNP@lucidvision.com >>>>> http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp**** >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> SDNP mailing list >>>>> SDNP@lucidvision.com >>>>> http://lucidvision.com/mailman/listinfo/sdnp**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sop mailing list >>>>> sop@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sop mailing list >>>> sop@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sop >>>> >>>> >>> >> >
- [sop] New Non-WG Mailing List: sop -- Service Orc… IETF Secretariat
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Monique Morrow
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [sop] FW: [Sdnp] New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ashish Dalela (adalela)
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Scott Brim
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ping Pan
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ashish Dalela (adalela)
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Michael Hammer
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ping Pan
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ping Pan
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ashish Dalela (adalela)
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Michael Hammer
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ping Pan
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ping Pan
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ashish Dalela (adalela)
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Michael Hammer
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ashish Dalela (adalela)
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Michael Hammer
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Michael Hammer
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ping Pan
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Thomas Nadeau
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Ashish Dalela (adalela)
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Michael Hammer
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] FW: New Non-WG Mailing List: sop… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [sop] -- Service Orchestration and Desciption… Ashish Dalela (adalela)
- Re: [sop] -- Service Orchestration and Desciption… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [sop] -- Service Orchestration and Desciption… Ashish Dalela (adalela)
- Re: [sop] -- Service Orchestration and Desciption… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] New Non-WG Mailing List: sop -- … DIEGO LOPEZ GARCIA
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] New Non-WG Mailing List: sop -- … Ashish Dalela (adalela)
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] New Non-WG Mailing List: sop -- … DIEGO LOPEZ GARCIA
- Re: [sop] [Sdnp] New Non-WG Mailing List: sop -- … Ashish Dalela (adalela)