Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple TCP connections
"Robb Topolski" <robb@funchords.com> Thu, 20 November 2008 22:24 UTC
Return-Path: <ledbat-bounces@ietf.org>
X-Original-To: tana-archive@ietf.org
Delivered-To: ietfarch-tana-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB8353A6898; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:24:16 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ledbat@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9D13A6898 for <ledbat@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:24:15 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.249
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.727, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Aqh2P5130hB for <ledbat@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:24:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04FCD3A677D for <ledbat@ietf.org>; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:24:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so636664rvf.49 for <ledbat@ietf.org>; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.140.192.9 with SMTP id p9mr1473719rvf.236.1227219852828; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 10.141.69.3 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3efc39a60811201424l5fc9f1d1keab7e811b5a8bca8@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:24:12 -0800
From: Robb Topolski <robb@funchords.com>
To: ledbat@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: <C54B2BA4.3B85%lars.eggert@nokia.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <A0988C2F192F124FAFE3D70264C04587077A130C@xmb-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com> <C54B2BA4.3B85%lars.eggert@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple TCP connections
X-BeenThere: ledbat@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Mailing list of the LEDBAT WG <ledbat.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat>, <mailto:ledbat-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/pipermail/ledbat>
List-Post: <mailto:ledbat@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ledbat-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat>, <mailto:ledbat-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2069906022=="
Sender: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org
Errors-To: ledbat-bounces@ietf.org
I want to eliminate the "bandwidth hogging" motive in using multiple P2P connections to get more traffic across a congested network. Neither the facts nor the personalities of the developers involved support that charge. It's a huge and false distraction from what may be good work at hand. P2P apps, users, protocols, developers do not use multiple connections to get an unfair "leg up" across any point of congestion... THAT TRICK WON'T WORK ON SPEED-CAPPED CONNECTIONS: While it's true that larger number of standard TCP connections can allow a greater share of bandwidth across any particular point in the network, getting that bandwidth depends on a lack of any other limiting factor. In our residential networks, however, the subscriber's broadband modem imposes relatively low ceilings. A single connection can get maximum speed either in or out. Therefore, any "bandwidth-hogging" benefit of running multiple connections on these broadband access networks is very temporary at worst (about the time it takes for the multiple streams to all get knocked down and find new equilibrium) and may actually work out to be nil (giving that all the streams will respond eventually in relatively proportionate ways). P2P DOESN'T USE THAT TRICK: The slot-and-choke (used by BitTorrent) or queue-list techniques (used by Gnutella or ED2K) and similar used by others tends to limit the number of connections actually in use vs. disconnected or occasionally sending tiny bits of mesh data. Just like any other sender of information, P2P uploads are overall faster and more efficient when they respond to congestion signals than they are when they ignore them. P2P AVOIDS CONGESTED ROUTES: Sources for data that are on congested routes are used less often and for shorter times than sources on routes that are free of congestion. BitTorrent does this by reserving all but one of its slots for the fastest reciprocating peers and by reserving one slot to hunt for even faster peers (the presumption being that slow peers indicate congested routes). In Gnutella and ED2K, peers are usually both time and data limited -- so if the clock expires before a chunk is fully transferred, the transfer is ended. This has the net effect of getting the most data from peers without such a constraint. USING MULTIPLE CONNECTIONS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BANDWIDTH CONSUMED: In one of the presentations, the speaker seemed to tie the use of multiple connections to bandwidth consumption. The consumption of bandwidth, however, has everything to do with the size of the object being transferred and nothing to do with the number of connections. Take the task of downloading and sharing the Knoppix DVD. If the multiple connections were replaced by single connections, the bandwidth consumed would be essentially the same (about 10 GB). The additional overhead is hardly worth mentioning. There is a related -- almost rhyming -- motive, but it's not an evil motive as far as the network is concerned. Some users observe that being connected to more peers results in faster downloads. This is -not- because anyone is ignoring congestion signals, it's simply because more connections gives a downloader access to a larger number of altruistic "seeders" (sources who will upload without an immediate expectation of reciprocation). These seeders are still operating under the same network rules as other nodes, uploading only on a very limited number of their connections and responding to signs of congestion control. (And most users don't realize that seeders have little motivation to transfer exclusively to them, so while that trick works, it doesn't work as well as many expect. Many users are disappointed in the download rates experienced within heavily seeded swarms.) There is room for improvement -- like any other network use, P2P file-sharers have shown that they are very interested in efficiency and are adaptive to technology or techniques that gets them there. P2P file sharing is not perfect, either socially or technologically. There are network cheaters and generally dumb ideas out there. While I'm speaking generally of typical P2P users, developers, and protocols -- there will always be the few exceptions. While nobody has targeted these exceptions as the biggest part of "the problem," I didn't want the above info to be interpreted as ignoring the fact that they exist here and there.
_______________________________________________ ledbat mailing list ledbat@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ledbat
- [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple TCP… Joe Touch
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Joe Touch
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Kartik Chandrayana (karchand)
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Joe Touch
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Kartik Chandrayana (karchand)
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Joe Touch
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… lars.eggert
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Caitlin Bestler
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Joe Touch
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Robb Topolski
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Joe Touch
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Caitlin Bestler
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Robb Topolski
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Joe Touch
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Bryan Ford
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Michael Welzl
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Murari Sridharan
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Murari Sridharan
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Robb Topolski
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Lars Eggert
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Richard Bennett
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Robb Topolski
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Richard Bennett
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Robb Topolski
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Richard Bennett
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Robb Topolski
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Richard Bennett
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Eric Spaeth
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Robb Topolski
- Re: [ledbat] list of reasons for needing multiple… Robb Topolski