Re: [Teas] Poll on draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements-01 a WG documents

[Leeyoung <[e-mail]>]

Hi Lou and Pavan

I think Transport to TE is a good compromise. I personally support that idea. In regards to the content of the requirements in the current draft, the WG reached a consensus that this draft is a good start and expressed their opinion through the poll. There is no reason to debate again the legitimacy of the content of the requirements, which were based on numerous use-cases from the operators, identifying the gaps and issues.  

I can go ahead to change with no change of the draft title (actn), but I can change what ACTN stands for from Abstraction and Control of Transport Network to Abstraction and Control of TE Network. 

If this is fine, we can move ahead. 

Thanks.
Young





-----Original Message-----
From: Lou Berger [mailto:[e-mail]] 
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 10:24 AM
To: BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO); Varma, Eve L (Eve); Daniele Ceccarelli; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
Cc: Doolan, Paul (Coriant - US/Irving); [e-mail]; TEAS WG
Subject: Re: [Teas] Poll on draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements-01 a WG documents

On 09/18/2015 10:45 AM, BELOTTI, SERGIO (SERGIO) wrote:
> +1 support to Daniele and Eve.
> 
> I think Daniele proposal can be a good level of compromise .
> 
>  

I agree that replacing "Transport Networks" with "TE Networks" is definitely a very good change, and certainly readily understandable from the TEAS WG context.

Now on to the AC part.  Fundamentally we're trying to capture what's new in the requirements documented in the draft.  Abstraction and Control are both things supported by today's standards, so what's new from the requirements perspective? I have to say even reading the PS draft, it wasn't immediately obvious. We've stated in other messages our view. It would be great to get some better options on the table.

Thanks,
Lou

> 
> In addition:
> 
> - Fitting "ACTN" into the "TEAS" body of work:
> Work focusing on "how TE networks can be abstracted and managed in a
> controller(s) driven environment" is an obvious item of interest to 
> the WG. And this is primarily where we believe the "ACTN" work can 
> contribute; the requirements discussed in the document that just got 
> adopted by the WG aligns well with this. The intent behind the 
> name-change was to have something generic enough to capture what we 
> want this work to be about. Note that this is just a requirements 
> document and since this is the first document to be adopted in this 
> realm, it is important to get the "naming" right now rather than 
> later. "VN Controller" is perhaps not a great choice -- very much open 
> to other choices that would capture the essence of the first statement above.
> 
> During Dallas meeting, it was clearly asked in the ACTN discussion , 
> what WG thought about ACTN work and how ACTN (not VC or VC-controller 
> or something else) can fit to TEAS working group objective and scope. 
> The answer of the audience was clearly , support of ACTN work into the 
> TEAS WG, and so we do not need NOW, to discuss where the “ACTN” work 
> can or cannot contribute. ACTN was clearly explained , and the 
> decision of WG was related to that type of work , not towards another 
> intent , larger or smaller this can be.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks
> 
> sergio
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> *From:*Varma, Eve L (Eve) [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Sent:* venerdì 18 settembre 2015 14:57
> *To:* Daniele Ceccarelli; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> *Cc:* Doolan, Paul (Coriant - US/Irving); Lou Berger; 
> [e-mail]; TEAS WG
> *Subject:* RE: [Teas] Poll on draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements-01 a WG 
> documents
> 
>  
> 
> Dear all,
> 
>  
> 
> I must agree with Daniele’s points.   In reviewing the inputs re
> draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements becoming a WG document, which 
> resulted in its adoption as such, I don’t recall any inputs other than 
> “Support”;  I didn’t see “Support, but clarify….” or “Support, but 
> change….”  Given this, I am truly surprised at the discussion that has now arisen.
> 
>  
> 
> While I have no real issue in changing Transport to TE in the document 
> title to move this forward, though I don’t see the issue with using 
> the term Transport (which hasn’t been considered solely L0/L1 for a 
> long time), I hope that the authors would be able to move forward 
> quickly to publish as a WG draft with essentially the same title.
> 
>  
> 
> Bes regards,
> 
> Eve
> 
>  
> 
> *From:*Teas [mailto:[e-mail]] *On Behalf Of *Daniele 
> Ceccarelli
> *Sent:* Friday, September 18, 2015 8:38 AM
> *To:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> *Cc:* Doolan, Paul (Coriant - US/Irving); Lou Berger; 
> [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>; TEAS WG
> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] Poll on draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements-01 a WG 
> documents
> 
>  
> 
> Pavan,
> 
>  
> 
> Please see inline.
> 
>  
> 
> BR
> Daniele
> 
>  
> 
> *From:*Vishnu Pavan Beeram [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Sent:* venerdì 18 settembre 2015 14:05
> *To:* Daniele Ceccarelli
> *Cc:* Lou Berger; Doolan, Paul (Coriant - US/Irving); 
> [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>; TEAS WG
> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] Poll on draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements-01 a WG 
> documents
> 
>  
> 
> A few points to mull over and move the discussion along:
> 
> - Fitting "ACTN" into the "TEAS" body of work:
> Work focusing on "how TE networks can be abstracted and managed in a
> controller(s) driven environment" is an obvious item of interest to 
> the WG. And this is primarily where we believe the "ACTN" work can 
> contribute; the requirements discussed in the document that just got 
> adopted by the WG aligns well with this. The intent behind the 
> name-change was to have something generic enough to capture what we 
> want this work to be about. Note that this is just a requirements 
> document and since this is the first document to be adopted in this 
> realm, it is important to get the "naming" right now rather than 
> later. "VN Controller" is perhaps not a great choice -- very much open 
> to other choices that would capture the essence of the first statement above.
> 
> */[DanCe] The IETF is contribution driven. If the WG contributed a 
> draft related to a subset of what the chairs expect, it means that 
> there is interest just in that subset. If the chairs wanted something 
> generic enough they should have asked for a document generic enough 
> (before the wg adoption), not call for the adoption of a document and 
> then ask to change its scope. The authors are interested in writing 
> ACTN requirements, which not only is a subset of what the chairs ask 
> for but is also slightly different since we’re not speaking just about 
> nodes and links. /*
> 
> 
> - Complementing existing TEAS work:
> <draft-ietf-teas-interconnected-te-info-exchange> discusses the 
> architecture for the exchange of TE information between interconnected 
> TE networks in support of end-to-end TE path establishment. It 
> discusses in great detail the notion of "abstraction in TE networks". 
> Our sincere hope (belief rather) is that the <actn-requirements> 
> document (and other <actn> related documents that get adopted by the 
> WG) would be complementary to (/consistent with) the 
> <interconnected-te-info-exchange> draft.
> 
> */[DanCe] What does complementary mean? Complementary in the sense 
> that interconnected TE is for multi-domain LSP establishment in 
> distributed control plane and ACTN does the same for centralized one? 
> ACTN has a broader scope. The multi domain and multi layer part can be 
> seen as complimentary, but again ACTN is not just nodes and links, it 
> includes services, VNF, network slices and so on./*
> 
> 
> - Focus on the term "Controller":
> One train of thought is to use this new work (conveniently facilitated 
> by the induction of ACTN into TEAS) to focus solely on the "controller"
> aspects (given the belief that non-controller aspects are adequately 
> covered by existing solutions). Personally, I don't have a strong 
> preference on whether the "naming" should reflect this or not 
> (Danielle's latest suggestion - use "TE" in the ACTN acronym - is 
> pretty close to what I personally would like it to be), but it is 
> important to get some clarity on this "scoping" detail before zeroing in on any "name".
> 
> */[DanCe] The scoping should have been made clear before the call for 
> adoption. The authors scoped the draft as X and asked for the adoption 
> of X and now they are requested to publish the draft as a starting 
> point for Y. In 2 years we have put together use cases, an 
> architecture and would have liked to start working on solutions for 
> that, we’d like not to start from the beginning again. Please note the 
> list of ACTN related drafts in TEAS (not to consider the expired ones 
> still submitted as
> draft-xxxxx-actn…)/*
> 
> */ /*
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/images/search-small.gif
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> draft-klee-teas-actn-connectivity-multi-domain
> <http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-klee-teas-actn-connectivity-multi-doma
> in-02.txt>
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> -02
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-klee-teas-actn-connectivity-multi-do
> main-02.txt>
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> 2015-06-08
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> draft-kumaki-teas-actn-multitenant-vno
> <http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-kumaki-teas-actn-multitenant-vno-00.tx
> t>
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> -00
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kumaki-teas-actn-multitenant-vno-00.
> txt>
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> 			
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> 2015-07-06
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> draft-lam-teas-usage-info-model-net-topology
> <http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-lam-teas-usage-info-model-net-topology
> -01.txt>
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> -01
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lam-teas-usage-info-model-net-topolo
> gy-01.txt>
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> 2015-07-03
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> s-01%22&as_sitesearch=mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/teas/>
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> draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements
> <http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements-01.txt>
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> -01 
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements-01.txt>
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> 2015-07-27
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> draft-leebelotti-teas-actn-info
> <http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-leebelotti-teas-actn-info-00.txt>
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> -00 
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leebelotti-teas-actn-info-00.txt>
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> 2015-07-02
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> <http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-leeking-teas-actn-problem-statement-00
> .txt>
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> -00
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leeking-teas-actn-problem-statement-
> 00.txt>
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> 
> 2015-06-09
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> draft-suzuki-teas-actn-multidomain-opc
> <http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-suzuki-teas-actn-multidomain-opc-00.tx
> t>
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> -00
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-suzuki-teas-actn-multidomain-opc-00.
> txt>
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> 2015-07-06
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> http://tools.ietf.org/images/search-small.gif
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> rm-report-00%22&as_sitesearch=mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/teas/>
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> <http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-xu-teas-actn-abstract-alarm-report-00.
> txt>
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> -00
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-teas-actn-abstract-alarm-report-0
> 0.txt>
> 
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> 2015-07-06
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> http://tools.ietf.org/images/search-small.gif
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> ework-00%22&as_sitesearch=mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/teas/>
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> draft-ceccarelli-teas-actn-framework
> <http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ceccarelli-teas-actn-framework-00.txt>
> 
> 	
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> -00 
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ceccarelli-teas-actn-framework-00.tx
> t>
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> 			
> 
> 2015-06-15
> 
> */ /*
> 
> */ /*
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Pavan
> 
>  
> 
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 3:22 AM, Daniele Ceccarelli 
> <[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> 
> Lou,
> 
> Is your concern mostly related to the "transport" word? In the last 
> years the concept of transport evolved pretty much, mostly with 
> transport SDN and it is no longer tied to the L0-L1 but it covers 
> whatever mean used to transport IP. Young already pointed out what the 
> draft aims to cover.
> 
> If you're so strongly willing to change the name we could turn 
> "Transport" into TE so that it becomes Abstraction and Control of TE 
> networks. (this is my personal proposal, not shared by the other 
> ACTNers)...and ACTN remains, but with the "broader" scope and it is 
> "more" complementary to the interconnected TE.
> The change of the file name is not just the change of a file name.
> 
> Daniele
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>]
>> Sent: venerdì 18 settembre 2015 02:51
>> To: Doolan, Paul (Coriant - US/Irving)
>> Cc: TEAS WG; [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>> Subject: Re: [Teas] Poll on draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements-01 a WG 
>> documents
>>
>>
> 
>> Paul,
>>
>> On 9/17/2015 4:28 PM, Doolan, Paul (Coriant - US/Irving) wrote:
>> > Hello Lou and Pavan,
>> >
>> > this instruction to change ACTN to VN-Controller seems a little 
>> > high
>> handed.
>>
>> I/we hear you. But...
>>
>> > Young Lee, Danielle and their co-authors have spent a long time 
>> > working
>> on this and creating mind share and name recognition for ACTN. I know 
>> what it stands for as do audiences around the world to whom the team 
>> have introduced the idea and from whom they have garnered support.
>>
>> That's fair, but from our perspective the IETF has been working TE a 
>> lot longer than the term ACTN has been around, and that is the 
>> context where this work fits.
>>
>> As I stated at the last meeting, it's my (not to speak for Pavan, but 
>> think he agrees too)  option that this work is complimentary to the 
>> interconnected-te particularly as it is more focused on the
>> controller/non-fully distributed control plane approaches.   We think
>> that covering such controller based TE models as very important and 
>> fills an important gap in the TE architecture.
>>
>> Right now, we (the WG) are just at the requirements stage and those 
>> requirements apply quite broadly and that is what we (the chairs) 
>> want to make clear by the name change.
>>
>> > In contrast I have absolutely no idea what a vn-controller 
>> > requirements draft might be about and,
>>
>> > if you persist with this renaming, it clearly makes no sense to 
>> > make 'no
>> other changes to the draft' since, at the very least, the (new) title 
>> needs explanation.
>>
>> It's just a filename.  That said, we (chairs) are trying to project 
>> where the work will end up based on the WG consensus process.  Chairs 
>> have changed names in the past and been right and sometimes wrong, 
>> but in the end we have an RFC published with the title that 
>> represents WG consensus and an RFC number.
>>
>> > I really think the draft should be adopted as (originally) named. 
>> > If you want
>> to change the name then coming back to the WG with a clearly 
>> articulated rationale and asking for its support would seem to me to 
>> be a more inclusive way to do things.
>>
>> It's not unusual for chairs to change names of a draft at adoption.
>> Normally it goes without comment.  Perhaps if this wasn't the first 'actn'
>> document it would have.
>>
>> Again, we're open to alternatives that capture the scope of the work.
>>
>> Lou
>>
>> > my 10cents,
>> > pd
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sep 17, 2015, at 7:04 AM, Lou Berger wrote:
>> >
>> >> All,
>> >>    The WG poll is closed.
>> >>
>> >> Authors,
>> >>    Please republish draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements-01 as 
>> >> draft-ietf-teas-vn-controller-requirements-00 with only the date 
>> >> and file name changed.
>> >> Comments received (publicly and privately) should be discussed and 
>> >> addresses in the -01 version.
>> >>
>> >> Please note the file name change. Normally it's pretty formulaic.
>> >> But this draft is a little different as it has evolved over time 
>> >> to its current form and where we expect it to  go.  In particular, 
>> >> we see this draft as a companion to the 'interconnected-te' work 
>> >> and covering the various possible controller-based TE models  
>> >> (where the previous work was more focused on fully distributed control models).
>> >> So we think a broader name warranted.
>> >>
>> >> Again, no other changes to the draft should be made at this time.
>> >>
>> >> Thank you,
>> >> Lou and Pavan
>> >>
>> >> On 9/2/2015 4:25 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>> >>> All,
>> >>>
>> >>> This is start of a two week poll on making
>> >>> draft-lee-teas-actn-requirements-01 a TEAS working group document.
>> >>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do 
>> >>> not support". If indicating no, please state your technical 
>> >>> reservations with the document.  If yes, please also feel free to 
>> >>> provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is 
>> >>> a WG
>> document.
>> >>>
>> >>> The poll ends September 16th
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> Lou and Pavan
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Teas mailing list
>> >>> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Teas mailing list
>> >> [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> 
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
>> >
>>
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