Re: [Eligibility-discuss] On 3797 alternatives

[Rob Sayre <[e-mail]>]

On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 2:31 PM Donald Eastlake <[e-mail]> wrote:

> On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 2:43 PM Rob Sayre <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not really here to sell drand, but it does meet the requirements on
> paper: "the source is announced before the ceremony starts...".
>
> No, in my opinion it does not. The title of the document starts with
> "Publicly Verifiable ...". Perhaps I should change the name to
> "Publicly Persuasive...". Would a member of the public believe drand
> is as honest as a major government run lottery? I think not.
>

I'm not sure what "publically persuasive" would mean. I don't really see
why a "major government run lottery" would be more believable here, but
it's of course totally subjective.


>
> > Presumably you'd pick a drand iteration number from the future, and use
> that. The draft is a little confusing in using stock tickers, because
> "Section 3.1: Sources of Randomness" of RFC3797* says not to do that...
>
> And that section gives specific reasons why not.
>

Yes.


>
> > While I agree that entropy "sources exist", the debate here is guidance
> on picking a verifiable one.
>
> I think it needs to be not just mechanically verifiable but also
> persuasively random.
>

Yeah, it can be taken pretty far, even aside from quantum computing:
https://www.cloudflare.com/learning/ssl/lava-lamp-encryption/

The penultimate section is my favorite:

Do all Cloudflare offices have the lava lamp wall?
---
The other two main Cloudflare offices are in London and Singapore, and each
office has its own method for generating random data from real-world
inputs. London takes photos of a double-pendulum system mounted in the
office (a pendulum connected to a pendulum, the movements of which are
mathematically unpredictable). The Singapore office measures the
radioactive decay of a pellet of uranium (a small enough amount to be
harmless).

At the bottom there, you get "LavaRand"*, which covers "Randomness Mixing".
I don't think the IETF really needs to purchase a double-pendulum for this
task, though. This stuff is persuasively random, but not verifiable.

thanks,
Rob

*
https://blog.cloudflare.com/lavarand-in-production-the-nitty-gritty-technical-details/