[idn] dichotomies
Erik van der Poel <erik@vanderpoel.org> Sun, 27 February 2005 19:15 UTC
Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23276 for <idn-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:15:15 -0500 (EST)
Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.44 (FreeBSD)) id 1D5Tma-0009RK-7x for idn-data@psg.com; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:08:48 +0000
Received: from [207.115.63.77] (helo=pimout1-ext.prodigy.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.44 (FreeBSD)) id 1D5TmY-0009Qx-Ta for idn@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 19:08:47 +0000
Received: from [10.1.1.2] (adsl-64-174-147-206.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.174.147.206]) by pimout1-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1RJ8eSJ218144; Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:08:40 -0500
Message-ID: <42221AB7.9070000@vanderpoel.org>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:08:39 -0800
From: Erik van der Poel <erik@vanderpoel.org>
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: IETF idn working group <idn@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: [idn] dichotomies
References: <D872CCF059514053ECF8A198@scan.jck.com> <421D8411.9030006@vanderpoel.org> <p06210208be4390618c81@[192.168.0.101]> <421E0D0C.2000309@vanderpoel.org> <p06210202be43c3888991@[192.168.0.101]> <E07CE813AD23B2D95DA0C740@scan.jck.com> <421E30F2.1040408@vanderpoel.org> <0E7F74C71945B923C52211F3@scan.jck.com> <421EA0C9.1010500@vanderpoel.org> <00a401c51af3$7863aae0$030aa8c0@DEWELL> <20050226081913.GD14956~@nicemice.net>
In-Reply-To: <20050226081913.GD14956~@nicemice.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on psg.com
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.1
Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org
Precedence: bulk
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Adam M. Costello wrote: > That (or something very similar) was a principle that went into the > IDNA spec. I personally was inclined to define both internationalized > domain names and internationalized host names, where the former would > be completely general (allowing *all* Unicode characters, even the > invisible ones), and the latter would be much narrower (excluding most > punctuation and symbols). This would be an analogy to traditional > domain names (which allow all ASCII characters, even control characters) > and traditional host names (which allow only the ASCII letters, digits, > and one punctuation mark, the hyphen-minus). > > On the other hand, there was an argument that the traditional > distinction between domain names and host names was the source of > endless confusion and debate, and was a mistake that should not be > repeated with IDNs. I have some sympathy for that argument. > > In any case, we ended up with just one set of non-ASCII characters for > IDNs, between the two extremes: only invisible characters are excluded. > (I think there's one exception--a visible space character that is also > excluded). Another bifurcation that could be considered somewhat analogous is that of http vs https. We might even want to consider bringing the topic of security into the ACE prefix discussion. One could imagine a world where two different ACE prefixes co-exist, one new prefix for "secure" domain labels, the other (old) prefix for less secure labels. The secure prefix would have similar encoding and decoding rules, but would not have the sometimes-confusing mappings currently found in nameprep, and would prohibit a rather large number of Unicode characters and/or character types (for future expansion). We might then choose "xn--s" as the prefix, so that the raw Punycode form would also be more secure since there would be an 's' next to whatever follows, rather than a hyphen, which looks more like a delimiter. E.g. xn--spypal-4ve instead of xn--pypal-4ve. Note that the spypal looks quite different from pypal. Of course, this example isn't very good since the beginning of pypal doesn't resemble the beginning of paypal. A better example would be one where the 2nd 'a' of paypal was a homograph. However, a 2nd ACE prefix might be fraught with difficulties. Just for starters, we might end up with FQDNs with 3 different encodings (if there are 3 or more labels), i.e. both ACE prefixes and the pure ASCII TLD name. And then there would also be the question of *which* ACE prefix to choose while encoding. We might just have to specify that *all* the labels use the same ACE prefix (or pure ASCII, e.g. for the TLD). This would be consistent with RFC 1591 and current conventions (except for TLDs that allow just about anything underneath them). E.g. the .jp registry might have a rule that says that *all* domain labels either use one prefix or the other, together with pure ASCII for the final ".jp" part (or any part). Co-existence is quite different from transition. Although migration typically requires the co-existence of the old and the new during the transition period, people normally intend to complete the transition by getting rid of the old (entirely or almost entirely). However, there are probably many examples of migrations that started with good intentions but ended up with rather long periods of co-existence. One that comes to mind is HTML vs XHTML. I don't know whether we will ever be able to exterminate HTML, regardless of our "good" intentions. Erik
- [idn] related work Erik van der Poel
- [idn] Unicode categories Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue John C Klensin
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Adam M. Costello
- Re: [idn] something a little lighter for the week… Doug Ewell
- Re: [idn] stability Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: process Adam M. Costello
- Re: [idn] punctuation John C Klensin
- Re: [idn] Re: stability JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables Gervase Markham
- Re: [idn] stringprep: PRI #29 Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Gervase Markham
- Re: [idn] Re: stability Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] process Paul Hoffman
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables YAO Jiankang
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Adam M. Costello
- Re: [idn] punctuation John C Klensin
- Re: [idn] punctuation tedd
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] punctuation Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Gervase Markham
- Re: [idn] Re: stability Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables Adam M. Costello
- [idn] Re: character tables John C Klensin
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: stability JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables Paul Hoffman
- Re: [idn] Re: stability Martin v. Löwis
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: stability John C Klensin
- [idn] Re: Unicode categories John C Klensin
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Erik van der Poel
- [idn] character tables Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables John C Klensin
- Re: [idn] Re: stability Mark Davis
- Re: [idn] Re: stringprep: PRI #29 Erik van der Poel
- [idn] stability Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: dichotomies JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] process Adam M. Costello
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables William Tan
- Re: [idn] Re: process James Seng
- [idn] Re: stability Simon Josefsson
- Re: [idn] stability Erik van der Poel
- [idn] Re: stability Martin v. Löwis
- Re: [idn] Re: process Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: [idn] Re: stringprep: PRI #29 Adam M. Costello
- Re: [idn] punctuation tedd
- [idn] Re: dichotomies Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: stability Martin v. Löwis
- Re: [idn] punctuation Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] process JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- [idn] Re: stability Simon Josefsson
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- [idn] Re: stringprep: PRI #29 Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Adam M. Costello
- Re: [idn] process John C Klensin
- Re: [idn] Re: Unicode categories Mark Davis
- Re: [idn] process Doug Ewell
- Re: [idn] Re: stability Adam M. Costello
- Re: [idn] process Erik van der Poel
- [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] punctuation tedd
- [idn] punctuation Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: stability James Seng
- [idn] Re: stability Simon Josefsson
- [idn] something a little lighter for the weekend Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] something a little lighter for the week… Adam M. Costello
- Re: [idn] process Gervase Markham
- [idn] Re: character tables Cary Karp
- [idn] Mozilla? JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] punctuation Erik van der Poel
- [idn] Re: Unicode categories Erik van der Poel
- [idn] Re: stability Simon Josefsson
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- [idn] Re: process Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [idn] process Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] punctuation Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables Gervase Markham
- Re: [idn] Re: process Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: process James Seng
- [idn] stringprep mailing list Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: dichotomies Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: stability Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: stability JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] Re: process Erik van der Poel
- [idn] Re: stringprep: PRI #29 Simon Josefsson
- Re: [idn] punctuation Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] stability Martin v. Löwis
- [idn] stringprep: PRI #29 Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: character tables Paul Hoffman
- Re: [idn] nameprep2 and the slash homograph issue Erik van der Poel
- [idn] Re: stability Simon Josefsson
- [idn] process Erik van der Poel
- [idn] stringprep: existing profiles and string pr… Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: stability Erik van der Poel
- [idn] dichotomies Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] stability JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- [idn] Re: character tables Cary Karp
- Re: [idn] Re: process Erik van der Poel
- [idn] Re: stringprep mailing list Simon Josefsson
- Re: [idn] Re: Unicode categories Martin v. Löwis
- Re: [idn] Re: stability JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] something a little lighter for the week… John C Klensin
- Re: [idn] something a little lighter for the week… Adam M. Costello
- Re: [idn] Re: dichotomies JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [idn] Re: stability Erik van der Poel
- Re: [idn] Re: stability Erik van der Poel
- [idn] Re: stringprep: PRI #29 Simon Josefsson
- Re: [idn] stability Erik van der Poel
- [idn] Re: stringprep: PRI #29 Simon Josefsson