Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to 7/20) - Adoption of draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car-05.txt and draft-kaliraj-idr-bgp-classful-transport-planes-17.txt
Kaliraj Vairavakkalai <kaliraj@juniper.net> Fri, 08 July 2022 17:12 UTC
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From: Kaliraj Vairavakkalai <kaliraj@juniper.net>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to 7/20) - Adoption of draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car-05.txt and draft-kaliraj-idr-bgp-classful-transport-planes-17.txt
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idr/zKeWuLajAuybl3kWkvmtRGr8bIw>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to 7/20) - Adoption of draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car-05.txt and draft-kaliraj-idr-bgp-classful-transport-planes-17.txt
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Hi Sue, As one of the authors, I support adoption of the BGP-CT draft: · draft-kaliraj-idr-bgp-classful-transport-planes-17.txt (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kaliraj-idr-bgp-classful-transport-planes/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kaliraj-idr-bgp-classful-transport-planes/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirMZ7yV6QQ$>) I don’t support adoption of CAR draft (draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car-05.txt), for the following reasons: * CAR has made basic assumptions about scenarios like ‘non agreeing color-domains’ and ‘multihoming’ being corner-cases, and don’t handle them well. As we can see from operator feedback, these assumptions are incorrect. IMHO, any new mechanisms should cater to all perceivable scenarios without making such assumptions. * Carrying color in NLRI has problems, including inability to express diverse paths to maximize network utilization, for Traffic-engineering. Using RD allows for such use cases in BGP-CT. Besides, RD is a better Disambiguator (even across network domains) than Addpath-ID (per session scope). * The proposal of carrying non-key fields in BGP NLRI complicates code, makes error handling tricky, and troubleshooting hard. It is also wasteful to repeat forwarding-information (e.g. per-VRF label/SID) per NLRI prefix instead of sharing it among all NLRIs, especially when the forwarding-information is large like SRv6 SIDs. * The MPLS scaling method proposed by CAR puts additional load on edge devices which may be low end legacy devices. They need to do recursive nexthop resolution, push deep label-stacks, and support large number of ECMP nexthops. This does not really solve the scaling problem. * CAR proposes new set of families towards CE devices also, which is a major hindrance in deployment. And re-invents existing mechanisms in new family. * CAR also proposes to re-invent filtering mechanisms using new route-types. As against CT working with existing mechanisms like RTC. * CAR uses brand new unproven procedures that will take time to mature, and incur Operational and training cost to the industry. It seems an unnecessary cost, given the procedures are not complete and not well thought through. Where-as BGP CT solves all these use-cases by adopting existing WG adopted mechanisms (like RFC-4364, RFC-4684) at transport layer. BGP CT provides better ROI for the efforts of the WGs. To save time and effort for all, I agree with the request from other WG members to adopt only one approach (I propose BGP CT). Thanks Kaliraj From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> Date: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 11:17 AM To: idr@ietf.org <idr@ietf.org> Subject: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to 7/20) - Adoption of draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car-05.txt and draft-kaliraj-idr-bgp-classful-transport-planes-17.txt [External Email. Be cautious of content] This begins a 2-week WG Adoption call (7/6/2022 to 7/20/2022) for the following drafts: · draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car-05.txt (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirMphnuvJc$>) · draft-kaliraj-idr-bgp-classful-transport-planes-17.txt (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kaliraj-idr-bgp-classful-transport-planes/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kaliraj-idr-bgp-classful-transport-planes/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirMZ7yV6QQ$>) The associated drafts may be useful in your consideration. CAR: · draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-22 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirMqPNTHqw$> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy/ · draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy-18 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirMqPNTHqw$> draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy/ · draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car-problem-statement-05.txt https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car-problem-statement/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dskc-bess-bgp-car-problem-statement/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirMba4H8Yo$> CT · draft-hegde-spring-mpls-seamless-sr-06.txt https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hegde-spring-mpls-seamless-sr/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hegde-spring-mpls-seamless-sr/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirMCpx2j0s$> · draft-kaliraj-idr-multinexthop-attribute-02.txt (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kaliraj-idr-multinexthop-attribute/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kaliraj-idr-multinexthop-attribute/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirMuKlZ4oI$>) · draft-kaliraj-bess-bgp-sig-private-mpls-labels-04 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kaliraj-bess-bgp-sig-private-mpls-labels/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kaliraj-bess-bgp-sig-private-mpls-labels/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirMr8jQfpI$>) You may discuss adoption of one or both the main drafts (CAR or Classful-Transport (CT)) in your response, and the associate drafts. A few caveats on your discussion: 1. Please do not worry whether the drafts belong in BESS or IDR. Both BESS and IDR work on creating relevant quality standards in BGP, and the chairs will work this out. 2. The IDR has spent time over 2020-2022 discussing these drafts. For background information, see the following links below. You can refer to these previous presentations or email discussions in your responses. 3. Please constrain your discussion to whether these drafts should be adopted. I’ve started another email thread on whether path establishment/distribution for a color (aka QOS/SLA/Transport Class) should be done via a specific BGP route (i.e., per-color NLRI) rather than as per-color attributes on a route. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idr/FhoK04HsSy9tR7ioV7AD0Vv6Ir4/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idr/FhoK04HsSy9tR7ioV7AD0Vv6Ir4/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirM-jCXwDk$> Questions (to consider) for these drafts: Jeff Haas (IDR Co-chair) posted a summary on March 21, 2022 that for route resolution and route origination/propagation, BGP-CAR and BGP-CT are functionally identical, but operationally different. ( https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idr/e69NRd9i2aG0WUxFkShEfQHZsHo/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idr/e69NRd9i2aG0WUxFkShEfQHZsHo/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!D6K2ZEZNlJllEUOmoz_w5H_ggwyamEym3zIbagLkWTU5R8xhJ5otwMx5IZEulTzXZ8hUxirMJyypGjQ$> 1. Do you agree or disagree that these two drafts are functionally identical? 2. If you agree, should we have just one draft or do the operational difference encourage us to have two drafts? 3. If you disagree, do the functional differences encourage us to have one or two drafts adopted? Juniper Business Use Only
- [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to 7/20… Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Tomasz Szewczyk
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Aravind Srinivas Srinivasa Prabhakar
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Kaliraj Vairavakkalai
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Moshiko Nayman
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Natrajan Venkataraman
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Aravind Srinivas Srinivasa Prabhakar
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Kaliraj Vairavakkalai
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Reshma Das
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Moshiko Nayman
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Moshiko Nayman
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Deepak Gowda
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … MEANS, ISRAEL L
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Daisuke Sugahara
- [Idr] Fwd: Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to… Ketan Talaulikar
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/… Shawn Zhang
- Re: [Idr] Fwd: Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/… Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Swadesh Agrawal (swaagraw)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Swadesh Agrawal (swaagraw)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Luay Jalil
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Zafar Ali (zali)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Balaji Rajagopalan
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Miya Kohno
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … James Guichard
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … James Guichard
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Miya Kohno
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Srihari Sangli
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … 苏远超(以泰)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Phil Bedard
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Aijun Wang
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Kaliraj Vairavakkalai
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Shraddha Hegde
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Ahmed Abdelsalam (ahabdels)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Julian Klaiber
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Julian Klaiber
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Ketan Talaulikar
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Dhamija, Amit
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Bernier, Daniel
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Carmine Scarpitta
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Dhamija, Amit
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Severin Dellsperger
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Julian Klaiber
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … slitkows.ietf
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Stefano Salsano
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Antonio Cianfrani
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Satoru Matsushima
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Voyer, Daniel
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Srihari Sangli
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Ketan Talaulikar
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Laurent Metzger
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Julian Lucek
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Kaliraj Vairavakkalai
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Rabadan, Jorge (Nokia - US/Sunnyvale)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Gaurav Dawra
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Rokui, Reza
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Susan Hares
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Ianik Semco (isemco)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Ahmed Bashandy
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … slitkows.ietf
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Wanghaibo (Rainsword)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Ahmed Abdelsalam (ahabdels)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … zhuyq8@chinatelecom.cn
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Ianik Semco (isemco)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Jose Liste
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Krzysztof Szarkowicz
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … David Smith (djsmith)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Derek Yeung
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Brent Foster (brfoster)
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … MEANS, ISRAEL L
- Re: [Idr] Part 2 of CAR/CT Adoption call (7/6 to … Kalyani Rajaraman