Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requirement in RFC 5321

Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Mon, 28 September 2020 00:22 UTC

Return-Path: <moore@network-heretics.com>
X-Original-To: ietf-smtp@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf-smtp@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836AC3A08E2 for <ietf-smtp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 17:22:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.109
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bcy5EkcfDs3H for <ietf-smtp@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 17:22:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D9B73A08DC for <ietf-smtp@ietf.org>; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 17:22:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E749366D for <ietf-smtp@ietf.org>; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 20:21:59 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 27 Sep 2020 20:22:00 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=p69WF60hUPiokYuNsVO6WVGVbiP/buR0sX/43z4Dt AY=; b=E2kfD08fMxHVF8It5SbPYl9YVB69V1eFIMbdZeC9oLaL2rXlNwwavED8f BVwxksVDFhX/vbXVcjFUJNq7FqUOGB0NPHe25mRlEJoU2sU6HUipx9JuT/Z4e8zm RvGC2YSFYd+nehRtj1b+klZaHIOiMcssZkt6z/CmzNZanTbm1OHzFtVx9132M/iY VQAAry6JOSMpNw8Y1a5/7dGD4NK6WpA/+Ju2eyR2/nVFvG35TPIPzoC1GaIjS1Rt K5xUj9qoA5lpxGWF94VwO+2CXxXWspnnDszW1tRqNC+KpbjJtXs0vISX5MPwLZ0U P6sDgfEI5M+0jrinjfRfheP8pXOIg==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:pyxxX4MjXe4S4P_X9-NG5D5J9MT3rWvkcXcSiwt7163kGWq5iOvzYg> <xme:pyxxX-_sScq1aCuOnlCcUt46DylAVSlbcOs0QOBDlv3oHDbLPBHQiyt8jvIci69f7 fib9LsIJILQ0g>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedujedrvdehgdefgecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefheenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepiefgfeekhfelve ehudethfeutdfggedtieeuiedufeejhefhtdevfffhfffgueeknecuffhomhgrihhnpegr ughmihhnrdhnvghtnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrdduheenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:pyxxX_TzDDKcnpBLq57edKCbDnd1Id-QgYShE0HtSHplv2z6Gi0Utg> <xmx:pyxxXwuDhLRAhEBSNmjOCJqUD5pYEgpiL9QaIJdXwfD8biL-f_6WVA> <xmx:pyxxXwdyj34phFlceyrMUUM-yqzEtVwWZYPjJc_7dUnJ2Vy7yNd5_g> <xmx:pyxxX39zftfiS12elU_c-Y7vuiUYtGi9EhObAVk9kYv5vVXBRuvEcw>
Received: from [192.168.1.85] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0F4F93064674 for <ietf-smtp@ietf.org>; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 20:21:58 -0400 (EDT)
To: ietf-smtp@ietf.org
References: <402e7482-394f-e077-48b9-c9e47047c49d@dcrocker.net> <55218bbd-b001-ae3f-1afd-e4328ec7ba35@network-heretics.com> <c6b5dae5-d20a-c876-ce5a-86e1d073cf8f@dcrocker.net> <c4a66db8-e3f5-3f6f-acb0-afe01a69a27a@network-heretics.com> <cone.1601250950.437858.35945.1004@monster.email-scan.com> <ac132a1a-ec83-1ec6-dd34-85fd3bba95c5@network-heretics.com> <cone.1601252021.530626.35945.1004@monster.email-scan.com>
From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Message-ID: <6330c607-5ede-4766-1823-5c8be8a9097b@network-heretics.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 20:21:58 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <cone.1601252021.530626.35945.1004@monster.email-scan.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-smtp/7vFbTqqyGweXU_6zgiic-tVgJlY>
Subject: Re: [ietf-smtp] EHLO domain validation requirement in RFC 5321
X-BeenThere: ietf-smtp@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion of issues related to Simple Mail Transfer Protocol \(SMTP\) \[RFC 821, RFC 2821, RFC 5321\]" <ietf-smtp.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf-smtp>, <mailto:ietf-smtp-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-smtp/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-smtp@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-smtp-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-smtp>, <mailto:ietf-smtp-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 00:22:03 -0000

On 9/27/20 8:13 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:

>
> Anyone around here been on Usenet in the late 1990s, and remember this 
> on-going flamewar, how spam filtering is detrimental, how everyone has 
> an entitled right to have their email delivered, yadda yadda yadda?
>
> That's what this reminds me of. I'm really getting a sense of deja vu 
> here.

I was around then.      But if you don't think that users care whether 
their email is delivered, you're not paying much attention to users.

Ordinary users simply don't trust email to work.   They'll use email 
only as a last resort, and if they really need to send email, will try 
random combination of sender and recipient addresses (because people 
often need multiple addresses to try to negotiate the mess).   It's that 
bad.

>
>>> they object to. They won't have any effect. People will continue to 
>>> use spam filtering methods that work for them, and not the ones that 
>>> some other third party approves of, in some way.
>>
>> Irrelevant.   For the most part, "people" don't choose their spam 
>> filtering; they have it imposed on them and often have zero control 
>> over it except to try a different email address.
>
> That was another frequent theme on news.admin.net-abuse.email, circa 
> 1990s – how people are suffering victims of their administrators' 
> draconian spam filtering policies.
>
> Well, those arguments weren't exactly widely accepted back then, and I 
> don't think they're widely accepted now, either.

Just because people refuse to accept the truth doesn't mean it isn't true.


But this is a silly discussion.  I certainly acknowledge that spam 
filtering is hard, and that the state of the art is to use unreliable 
heuristics.   The point is, even if it's the best that we can currently 
do, it still doesn't work very well.   We do no credit to ourselves if 
we put our heads in the sand and mutter "it's not a problem!".

Keith