Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resolution (LLMNR)' to Proposed Standard
Keith Moore <moore@cs.utk.edu> Thu, 01 September 2005 11:34 UTC
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Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 07:34:11 -0400
From: Keith Moore <moore@cs.utk.edu>
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Subject: Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resolution (LLMNR)' to Proposed Standard
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>> The whole idea that local names should look like DNS names and be >> queried through the same APIs and user interfaces seems, well, >> wrong (or dubious at best), and needs serious study for the >> implications of applications using those APIs and the impact of >> such names on DNS, no? > > > No. Or at least, the point of having something like a link-local > name resolution protocol is that you can use the same interfaces to > look up the local names when using the link-local protocol, as you do > when looking up real DNS names when using the real DNS protocol. > That way all the existing applications work and don't need to be > changed. False. That way, you break various kinds of applications because you violate assumptions that those applications quite reasonably made about the APIs and services they were using, and you flood the DNS with useless queries. This is the same kind of problem that resulted from introduction of NAT. > Otherwise you would be suggesting building an entirely new protocol > and application stack, with changes to every application to support > the link-local scheme, which is obviously out of the question. Actually, it's the only approach that makes any sense. The idea that you can substitute a name service that works differently from what applications expect, without breaking some of those applications, is extremely naive. > So what you're saying is that you're opposed to whole concept of > link-local name resolution. No, I'm opposed to the concept of confusing resolution of local names with resolution of DNS names. > And that therefore you favour LLMNR because it doesn't (in your view) > provide it ! LLMNR isn't a competitor to mDNS. They attempt to address different problems. I favor adoption of LLMNR because in a world of disconnected and intermittently connected networks there's a need for applications to still be able to work - and being able to "work" includes being able to lookup the same DNS names that the applications would normally use in a connected network. I favor discouraging use of mDNS because I believe it harms interoperability of Internet applications and operation of the DNS. I would like to see a solution for the lookup of local names that did not have these characteristics. If that solution can be derived from the mDNS protocol, that's fine with me, but it shouldn't overload the DNS lookup APIs nor should it borrow the DNS name syntax. > Of course you are wrong on this last point - LLMNR will be deployed > behind the same APIs currently used to do real DNS lookups. LLMNR doesn't provide lookups for "local names" - it provides a local service that can be used to query for attributes of DNS names. >> IMO, local names and a lookup service for local names would be >> extremely useful, but neither the names nor the query interface >> should look much like DNS - the names should look different because >> otherwise there's too much potential for confusion with DNS names, >> and the query service should look different because local name >> lookup service probably can't make the same kinds of consistency or >> stability assurances that DNS does. > > > To say that, is to say that work on LLMNR should never have been > started. There is no demand for a local name resolution protocol > which doesn't present a DNS API to applications. You appear to be confusing "a protocol for resolving names locally" with "a protocol for resolving local names". They don't have to be the same thing. > You may well say that the whole concept of local name resolution, if > it must be presented to applications behind a DNS API, is a bad idea > and I have some sympathy with that view - but that's no argument for > LLMNR against mDNS ! > > Stuart seems to be claiming that the people who first told him to > take is mDNS away from the IETF, and LLMNR's authors, have that view > - and that LLMNR is the result of those people producing a protocol > which is intended to look enough like mDNS to fool people but is > deliberately _not_ intended to do any of the things that mDNS is good > for ! LLMNR _looks like_ mDNS because both were intended for looking up names on a disconnected network, and because both were based on DNS. That doesn't mean LLMNR _is trying to solve the same problem_ as mDNS. Keith _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Marc Manthey
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Marc Manthey
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Russ Allbery
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Bill Manning
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ian Jackson
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Russ Allbery
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Bill Manning
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Rob Austein
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Marc Manthey
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… bmanning
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Russ Allbery
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ian Jackson
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- RE: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Christian Huitema
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Russ Allbery
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Russ Allbery
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Jeffrey Hutzelman
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Henrik Levkowetz
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Bill Manning
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Marc Manthey
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Jeroen Massar
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Single DNS root (Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multic… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- RE: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Christian Huitema
- Alternative roots (was: Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal… Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Eric A. Hall
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Eric A. Hall
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ian Jackson
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ned Freed
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ian Jackson
- RE: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ian Jackson
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Tony Finch
- RE: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire
- RE: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Christian Huitema
- RE: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Dave Singer
- Re: Single DNS root JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Keith Moore
- RE: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Jeroen Massar
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Frank Ellermann
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Jeroen Massar
- Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Linkloc… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ian Jackson
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Peter Dambier
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Keith Moore
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Alan Barrett
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Tony Finch
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Paul Vixie
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Paul Vixie
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Ian Jackson
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Jeroen Massar
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Single DNS root John C Klensin
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Daniel Senie
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Jeffrey Hutzelman
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Bill Manning
- Re: Single DNS root JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Tony Finch
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Tony Finch
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Daniel Karrenberg
- Re: Name ownership and LLMNR (Re: Last Call: 'Lin… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Andrew Sullivan
- RE: Last Call: 'Linklocal Multicast Name Resoluti… Stuart Cheshire