RE: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt> (The "safe" HTTP Preference) to Proposed Standard
Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com> Sun, 16 November 2014 18:58 UTC
Return-Path: <huitema@microsoft.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3398F1A19FD for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 10:58:53 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZsTGftCJdMUa for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 10:58:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0126.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.126]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11CAB1A01F6 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 10:58:50 -0800 (PST)
Received: from DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (25.160.96.17) by DM2PR0301MB0752.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (25.160.97.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.11.14; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:58:49 +0000
Received: from DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (25.160.96.17) by DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (25.160.96.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.16.15; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:58:48 +0000
Received: from DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.96.17]) by DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.96.17]) with mapi id 15.01.0016.006; Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:58:48 +0000
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>
To: "dcrocker@bbiw.net" <dcrocker@bbiw.net>, ietf <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt> (The "safe" HTTP Preference) to Proposed Standard
Thread-Topic: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt> (The "safe" HTTP Preference) to Proposed Standard
Thread-Index: AQHP7sqsYLWXt3XKiUeA0ionuKW/3Zw/JdGdgAB3G1GAIoPYAIAAt+CAgADj6OA=
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:58:48 +0000
Message-ID: <a271429152ce4c97b48aed93a658b854@DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <20141023140635.10188.qmail@ary.lan> <028201cfef81$44eaec60$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <01PE4IK2ZVO20028JO@mauve.mrochek.com> <CAL0qLwbtCFefW82-676CsPuS7NX-Q6dE_=_qXAB7-T419VGzzA@mail.gmail.com> <546830E3.5090800@dcrocker.net>
In-Reply-To: <546830E3.5090800@dcrocker.net>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [72.235.151.68]
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655;UriScan:;
x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:;
x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655;
x-forefront-prvs: 039735BC4E
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(199003)(189002)(76576001)(77096003)(62966003)(31966008)(93886004)(33646002)(561944003)(97736003)(86362001)(92566001)(40100003)(77156002)(99396003)(108616004)(21056001)(95666004)(46102003)(99286002)(87936001)(120916001)(2656002)(105586002)(122556002)(106116001)(2501002)(106356001)(4396001)(107886001)(107046002)(50986999)(230783001)(74316001)(64706001)(101416001)(20776003)(76176999)(66066001)(54356999)(24736002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655; H:DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en;
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0752;
X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.onmicrosoft.com
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/774JTJMZFX8fDD-4U-gtT3jkeD8
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2014 18:58:53 -0000
> Rather, it's that the mechanism is only offered as a standardized way for a browser to request a feature that already exists in a number of major sites. And that's precisely the problem. Sites can easily adapt their services to the needs and desires of their users. They can do it today using site specific settings. I am pretty sure that these settings require more than just one bit, so we have to assume that sites will still need these settings tomorrow even if that safe bit proposal was adopted. There is thus not much engineering benefit. In fact there is probably a cost, with settings coming from two channels instead of only one. By creating a standard, we would be creating a social norm. It would not take long for regulators to mandate "safe" behavior for web sites, or to enforce the safe bit in various kinds of "great firewalls." It will all be in the name of protecting the children, but we all know that the real target will be dissent and free speech. By offering this setting as a standard, the IETF would become an accomplice of repressive regimes and other religious dictarures. Some features do not need to be standardized. -- Christian Huitema
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Donald Eastlake
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Donald Eastlake
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… S Moonesamy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… ned+ietf
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… t.p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Andrew Newton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… ned+ietf
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… ned+ietf
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… S Moonesamy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Paul Hoffman
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Barry Leiba
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Lloyd Wood
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Matthew Kerwin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Yoav Nir
- RE: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Christian Huitema
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Dave Crocker
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Yoav Nir
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John R Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Mark Nottingham
- RE: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Christian Huitema
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Mark Nottingham
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Eliot Lear
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… John R Levine
- Re: Last Call: <draft-nottingham-safe-hint-05.txt… Bjoern Hoehrmann