Re: The Next Generation
S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> Wed, 11 September 2019 22:13 UTC
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 15:12:17 -0700
To: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>, ietf@ietf.org
From: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>
Subject: Re: The Next Generation
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Hi Nico, At 12:47 PM 11-09-2019, Nico Williams wrote: >Did the SAAs call out Sayre's post as off-topic?? I didn't notice. But >you know, there's so much noise on this list lately... If they said >nothing even privately, then frankly that would be another stain on >their recent performance. We can't quite know if they objected >privately, of course, so it's hard to say. I don't know whether the Sergeant-at-arms pointed out that the message wsa off-topic. My comment was about the message which I was sending instead of the message from Mr Sayre. The aftermath of the last intervention(s) made it very difficult to discourage postings to the mailing list. >Not quite so. We're a VOLUNTEER organization. That means we're >self-selected. ADs don't get to select participants. ADs may get to >select or help select chairs for WGs, but that's about it. I gather that the point in the above is that participation in the organization is voluntary. I was reading a 2013 message in which it is mentioned that the organization has a bad reputation in other communities. People who are unfamiliar with the IETF style of discussion would be reluctant to get involved in mailing list discussions. When I look at the mailing list, I see emails from about the same persons as in 2013. >Now, some volunteers are asked by their employers to work on IETF >matters, some by their customers, and others do it for other reasons. Ok. >In principle the IETF could ask employers to be more, er, discriminating >as to who they assign to work at the IETF. I wonder what the EEOC in >the U.S. would think of that, were the IETF to do such a thing. I can >imagine lawsuits. So before the IETF does any such thing, I'd recommend >talking to lawyers. In any case, that leaves all other self-selected >volunteers free to self-select. The person(s) transmitting that message on behalf of the IETF might end up getting the IETF involved in the internal matters of some other organization(s). A lawyer might ask why the person is even doing that as it does sound like a bad idea at the outset. >IETF leadership is another story. Though again, one wonders what the >EEOC would think of the NomCom discriminating on bases for which >discrimination in employment is forbidden -- the NomCom isn't an >employer, so perhaps "nothing" is what the EEOC would think, but maybe >Congress would think something else entirely. Again, speak to a lawyer >before you think of engaging in such discrimination at the NomCom! I'll leave it to anyone familiar with the (U.S.) EEOC to comment about the above. >Even so, the NomCom selects from among the group of self-selected >volunteers. > >We can have a self-selected volunteer organization with zero control >over its volunteers diversity scores, or we can have a non-volunteer >organization that might be able to have an effect on the diversity of >its actual participants through bylaws and governance that would have >to.. not run afoul of American laws (the IETF, ISOC, and related >entities being American legal entities). The relevant laws is one of the topics which is rarely, if ever, discussed in public. >Who here can imagine the IETF no longer being a volunteer organization? > >I can, with effort anyways. I can imagine the IETF being like the >Unicode Consortium, the IEEE, OASIS, ISO/ANSI, ITU-T -- pay-big-bucks- >to-play. It's somewhat surprising that the IETF has not yet become a >pay-to-play organization, or that it exists at all instead of the ITU-T >taking over its functions. The IETF becoming pay-to-play would be the >simplest way to put an end to all the recent bickering on this list, so >there's that. The recent quarrels are not directly related to the IETF functioning as a volunteer organization. The IETF is, indirectly, and with some exceptions, pay-to-play, e.g. there is an attendance fee for meetings. In my opinion, the current model does not work well in the Southern Hemisphere. That opinion is based on the feedback which I received over the years. I am not arguing for changing the model as it would be unrealistic [1]. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/2019-06-ietf-monthly-statement_-_June2019.pdf
- The Next Generation Rob Sayre
- Re: The Next Generation Dan Harkins
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- Re: The Next Generation Rob Sayre
- Re: The Next Generation Kyle Rose
- Re: The Next Generation Melinda Shore
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- Re: The Next Generation Jared Mauch
- Re: The Next Generation Dan Harkins
- Re: The Next Generation Rob Sayre
- Re: The Next Generation John C Klensin
- Re: The Next Generation Michael StJohns
- Re: The Next Generation Alissa Cooper
- Re: The Next Generation Kyle Rose
- Re: The Next Generation Rob Sayre
- Re: The Next Generation lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- Re: The Next Generation Leif Johansson
- Re: The Next Generation George Michaelson
- Re: The Next Generation Masataka Ohta
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- RE: The Next Generation Michel Py
- Re: The Next Generation Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- Re: The Next Generation John C Klensin
- Re: The Next Generation Keith Moore
- Re: The Next Generation John C Klensin
- Re: The Next Generation S Moonesamy
- Re: The Next Generation Nico Williams
- Re: The Next Generation Warren Kumari
- Re: The Next Generation Rob Sayre
- Re: The Next Generation S Moonesamy
- Re: The Next Generation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The Next Generation shogunx
- Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Eric Rescorla
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Joe Abley
- Re: The Next Generation Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) shogunx
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Salz, Rich
- Re: Voting Security Keith Moore
- Re: Voting Security shogunx
- Re: Voting Security (was: The Next Genaration) Eric Rescorla
- Re: Voting Security Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Voting Security shogunx
- Re: Voting Security Vittorio Bertola