Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-policy-04.txt> (High level guidance for the meeting policy of the IETF) to Best Current Practice
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Fri, 20 April 2018 00:37 UTC
Return-Path: <ekr@rtfm.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA9212E89D for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:37:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.909
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zU08oJizWC4y for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ot0-x229.google.com (mail-ot0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3720B12E89A for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ot0-x229.google.com with SMTP id m22-v6so7838216otf.8 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sKlaAeMBXU1POAtmQMfgCEuPY+9pkH7uXFsqfZv4JbU=; b=aFBwld/0AwKrsCAo1NXZVvtXes5KXOd9JYFTAySFbgEocAtcQ1SdIy/I7q15dweXd+ D4OIAxBY1HPGO3YIR4yURqE35UU9SHzUshr5ac2Ix6zh/9lRxppKQ+gtyhBPxrILro5h hdXjTSZFaem+U+9LFR6Asqw9fg06DHosJ5g7E6w4UppziXIlDuoWjm9bWpLnbRfvi0ma W6WoVty01wNyVy0HycmQGDU3zDcVU+XDFDk0OV+9Sz3HA1Uv+zBD7a9lpLiANRT4waYc 5EQlShybuf0yvDHh2jCbxx8kcVoiwG0Heo91Uw/qKpNDV22yncwRS4UH15fhCEy/wLiX d/fQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sKlaAeMBXU1POAtmQMfgCEuPY+9pkH7uXFsqfZv4JbU=; b=Mxxg/nN/rn6Lqk83ADz2MqaR+zZ3ErL1WpoTZoVmYmV88QkRpAPYIUGTV8GKw1wPFU MnovDk6e3Ha5K5lKSxYVUg9FqXkEEovft0dnArKS+75Uus+/sgDubBUMPSi/ffKDUVmh B5F5J5Pj8To3gG1/UxrRS/2tc2Ln89Xl9PyU4CMUKxU2H+1bo69Euh+qqP1w9NwkL/6U Mu9bmyLR7hKgiEnSlACIUE6mepCOsa1T2Lt7aK+VIS1dDlcplvNmfkGtuMxmI8NgqJP8 n0kIoTEqJWkFjLJnuuM2DMNEtzOlNXQZ54pQSztt5IdTBSvb/UuyxkXsEd8Bg3DGCSRP oeGA==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tA3lfXC93QM9BT6rE1kxQ3Rgy4mpF9SA6vffsiABJ4WJGpU9ubC tlDZqphq1oJe6bqiAfKn87JBEcDO2usWlSeaKRRBeljlFD4=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx488Hmz3qw0yNEx/87heokicouLxhDnbCoK3t423yz4lL0yiXLHWoFdlsnj6t2helEkzk+LFRY0OUpfxZCKib78=
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:23f6:: with SMTP id t109-v6mr5703433otb.44.1524184621587; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:37:01 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.201.118.130 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:36:21 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <20180419013457.fq4ruqj7p4lfwxb4@mx4.yitter.info>
References: <152295916074.25912.932711807710247299.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20180419013457.fq4ruqj7p4lfwxb4@mx4.yitter.info>
From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:36:21 -0700
Message-ID: <CABcZeBPXUqe6ixF+Yx7P6E3Jt3fGjAMUrP368DTedGq-O-T61Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-policy-04.txt> (High level guidance for the meeting policy of the IETF) to Best Current Practice
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>
Cc: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>, mtgvenue@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f12656056a3ce281"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/Axfmn5eDao_itCOlfd02ZuBOt1U>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 00:37:04 -0000
Andrew, Thanks for raising this. While the stated rationale in S 2. is to spread travel pain around, I don't really think this gets us to 1-1-1-*. First, if you look at historical demographics, over the past 12 IETFs, we have 23% Asia, 26% Europe, and 42% NA). Put another way, the last time we had > 1/3 Asian attendance was IETF 94 in Yokohama, and the last time we had less than 1/3 NA attendance was IETF 79 in Beijing. So, a policy that was designed to match per-continent attendance would be more like 2-1-1-*. Second, continent is not a very good proxy for travel pain, both because Asia is so large (for instance, the shortest Tokyo to Singapore route is 7:25 out and 7:10 back (on JAL) and the shortest Tokyo - Honolulu route (ANA) is 7:20/8:10, so not really much different at all) and because flight connections are such a big contributor ( for instance, SFO-BKK is almost 20 hours, whereas SFO-NRT is 11). Bottom line, if this is supposed to be real requirements rather than just aspirations, I think it needs a rethink. -Ekr On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 6:34 PM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> wrote: > Dear IESG, > > On Thu, Apr 05, 2018 at 01:12:40PM -0700, The IESG wrote: > > > > The IESG has received a request from the Meeting Venue WG (mtgvenue) to > > consider the following document: - 'High level guidance for the meeting > > policy of the IETF' > > <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-policy-04.txt> as Best Current Practice > > In a recent discussion, the IAOC came to realise that the documents > draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process and > draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-policy may be in some tension. One of > them requires the IASA to balance meeting venues over time, and the > other has requirements that a meeting must meet. > > One possible difficulty that arises from the combination is if one > region turns out to be vastly more expensive than others. In that > case, some criteria for each venue may not be met in one region. The > result might also be financially ruinous for the IETF in general. > > The current IAOC interprets the drafts such that any of the criteria > except those in section 3.1 of > draft-ietf-mtgvenue-iaoc-venue-selection-process may be traded against > any other, over several years if need be, in order to meet the > geographic distribution policy described in > draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-policy. Assuming the documents are > published as they are currently written, we will use that > interpretation as governing IASA implementation decisions. It is > worth noting that, among the criteria that could be traded are those > of affordability. If that is not the interpretation of the IETF > community, then some clarification is needed to the text. > > Best regards, > > Andrew Sullivan > for the IAOC > > -- > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@anvilwalrusden.com > >
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-polic… Russ Housley
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-polic… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-polic… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-polic… Richard Barnes
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Ted Lemon
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-polic… Lou Berger
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: 1-1-1 or whateverm was … John Levine
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Lou Berger
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Adam Roach
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: 1-1-1 or whateverm was … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Melinda Shore
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-polic… tom p.
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-polic… Lou Berger
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… John Levine
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Fred Baker
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Russ Housley
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Randy Bush
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Lloyd Wood
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Suresh Krishnan
- Venue definition and distribution comments summar… Suresh Krishnan
- Re: Venue definition and distribution comments su… Lloyd Wood
- Re: [Mtgvenue] Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-me… Russ Housley
- Re: Last Call: <draft-ietf-mtgvenue-meeting-polic… Alissa Cooper