Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. formalisms discussion forward
Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com> Wed, 19 February 2014 16:52 UTC
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 11:52:17 -0500
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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com>
To: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
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Cc: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, JSON WG <json@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. formalisms discussion forward
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On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> wrote: > I feel that successful Internet interoperation is achieved at the level of > syntax; clear specification of which bytes should be sent and which > returned. Many times over the years I've heard assertions that if you get > the data model right, then the syntax is ephemeral: JSON or XML or ASN.1, > who cares? I've never found that notion remotely plausible, as there always > impedence mismatches. You end up having to fight over another syntax to > describe the model before you can fight about the syntax you're going to > send over the wire. > The point is to focus the discussion on the data going over the wire rather than the syntax. When the discussion is about syntax, that is usually a specification smell. Take HTTP's weak e-tags ETag: W/"who/ordered/this" Now syntax is the very least of the issues that ETags raise. But the resort to this particular syntax should have at least been a hint of the problems to come. Another peculiarity of the HTTP spec, there are two encodings for dates that parsers must support. Both contain completely useless information (why does a machine need to know the day of the week anyway). Both are needlessly verbose but we are talking about compressing headers rather than not sending irrelevant data. If people had not got into the weeds on syntax we might have come up with a better caching model. I don't see the value in having multiple encodings for a Web Service. But I would much rather do that than end up with two separate specifications because one group wanted ASN.1 and the other XML or some people want JSON and others must have XML. XML Web services have a whole ecology that some people are very heavily bought into. They really can't use a specification that doesn't play nice with that system. JSON is the future for new work. But just as the PKIX people had a point when they asked for an ASN.1 version of KEYPROV, there are going to be people whose existing infrastructure is XML who want to make use of work being done by a WG producing a JSON spec. The point is that the function of this group and any other platform level group is to support the work of the IETF WGs and the other groups that want to build on top. If we can provide them with a mechanism that allows them to provide a smooth transition path to the common encoding syntax, that helps them meet their goals. -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/
- [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. formalism… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. formalism… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Tatu Saloranta
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Andrew Newton
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Manger, James
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Tim Bray
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Cyrus Daboo
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Andrew Newton
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… John Cowan
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Nudging the English-language vs. forma… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging the … Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Pete Cordell
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Nico Williams
- Re: [Json] Schema Requirements (Was: Re: Nudging … Pete Cordell