Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions
Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu> Tue, 09 July 2013 21:52 UTC
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Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2013 17:52:33 -0400
From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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To: "Stach, Thomas" <thomas.stach@siemens-enterprise.com>
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Cc: "mmusic@ietf.org" <mmusic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions
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On 7/9/13 5:20 PM, Stach, Thomas wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mmusic-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mmusic-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Paul Kyzivat >> Sent: Monday, 08 July, 2013 17:53 >> To: mmusic@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions >> >> Thomas, >> >> On 7/8/13 5:24 AM, Stach, Thomas wrote: >> >>> [TS] Saving the half RTT is not my primary goal. When implementing >> ICE we got away without requiring PRACK. >>> I want to keep this property, since it allows > [TS] The remainder of the sentence got lost. It should have read "... since it allows easier introduction RTCWEB client with trickle ICE into a SIP network that never used PRACK." >> >> I get it that you think PRACK is hard to implement. >> But hard compared to *what*? I suspect that this will introduce >> complexity elsewhere. > [TS] With respect to this complexity I just see the 481 handling for the INFO. > Compared to all the new states that I need when I implement PRACK (which can include a new offer as you know), I just have to keep the previously sent provisional response together with the INFO request. The latter I have to keep anyhow for potential retransmissions. > If I get a 481, I resent the 18x and the INFO request. > BTW: Just form emphasis. This is only needed if there is a UDP hop somewhere, in case of TCP/TLS the 18x would never be lost. With PRACK, the work is implementing it as it is specified. And then you can use it everywhere, not just for trickle-ICE. I'm not sure I understand your proposal for using info in the context, but I *think* you are asking for *special* handling of 481 for INFO, contrary to how specs call for it to be implemented. For one think, this would effectively be a revision to some existing specification. And maybe you only what this handling when INFO is used for trickle-ICE? Remember, introducing this will often mean using an existing implementation of INFO for this purpose. >>>> If the response for a request within a dialog is a 481 >>>> (Call/Transaction Does Not Exist) or a 408 (Request Timeout), >> the >>>> UAC >>>> SHOULD terminate the dialog. >>> [TS] We are in the dialog establishing phase here and when the 180 >> was lost we don't even have an early dialog. >>> So this rule does not apply. The 481 to the INFO would rather be the >> indicator for this situation. As stated above we can prescribe that the >> 481 (and only the 481) is to be sent for the INFO and what happens >> next, i.e. retransmit the 180. >> >> This is part of the house of cards that I was talking about. >> You seem to be saying that a special rule should be be adopted, >> allowing >> INFO to be sent from INVITE-UAS before it is known that the dialog has >> been established. And then a special rule for processing 481 responses >> to INFO in this context. > [TS] Let me reject the comparison with a "house of cards". We are currently specifying a new feature. There are no deployed implementations yet. Thus we can exactly specify what should happen at the UAC when it receives an out-of-dialog INFO because the dialog establishing unreliable 18x was lost, i.e. to send 481. > On the UAS side we can also specify what to do when the INFO gets a 481. I.e. resend the 18x and the INFO request. > I consider this closer to a solid foundation than to a house of cards. Lets first decide in you are proposing a special mechanism for use with trickle-ICE, or if you are proposing a revison (bug fix?) to INFO, or to 3261 & 5057. If you are proposing a change in how INFO works exclusively when used for trickle-ICE then I think it is a non-starter. If you are proposing a revision regarding the handling of presumed-to-be in-dialog requests from UAS to UAC before the UAS has proof that the UAC knows of the dialog, then we can talk. Thanks, Paul > Regards > Thomas > >> >>>> Also, keep in mind that the 180 carries an entire SDP answer. If >> INFOs >>>> are competing with 180s then they may potentially need to carry that >>>> too >>>> (or at least the ICE parts) and it would be good if we don't have to >>>> open that can of worms. >>> [TS] For the trickle-ICE application of the info-package I would just >> recommend sending (all) the ICE candidates. >>> This eliminates the competition, you just take what you got last. >> >> Certainly it will be simpler if all candidates are sent each time. >> But I don't think that means you can just take what you got last. You >> still need to check if what you got is *older* than what you already >> have, and if so ignore it. >> >> Thanks, >> Paul >> _______________________________________________ >> mmusic mailing list >> mmusic@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic >
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Dan Wing
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Alan Johnston
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Vijaya Mandava (vimandav)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Emil Ivov
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Vijaya Mandava (vimandav)
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Parthasarathi R
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Christer Holmberg
- Re: [MMUSIC] Trickle ICE for SIP Questions Stach, Thomas
- [MMUSIC] UPDATE vs INFO for SIP Trickle ICE [was … Parthasarathi R