Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload-rtp-opus-08
Jean-Marc Valin <jmvalin@mozilla.com> Tue, 07 April 2015 11:55 UTC
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 07:55:26 -0400
From: Jean-Marc Valin <jmvalin@mozilla.com>
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To: Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com>, 'Colin Perkins' <csp@csperkins.org>, 'Robert Sparks' <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
References: <sjmoaosz53h.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <54E3A32F.2010008@jmvalin.ca> <760B7D45D1EFF74988DBF5C2122830C24D064CDE@szxpml507-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> <sjmk2zdzv6g.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <916F29B3-E392-481B-A269-FBA58DFEF14D@nostrum.com> <551C612B.4030702@mozilla.com> <C3DD8EE5-B066-4C06-99F4-B9147A128811@nostrum.com> <C17AE3D5-F62D-42A3-9F1F-885BF1B984EB@nostrum.com> <551EFB9C.4040504@xiph.org> <sjmy4m5grwp.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <269A06E2-6704-4E5E-BBFD-92F157639261@nostrum.com> <5522D40E.8040402@nostrum.com> <73626E80-1EBA-4A85-83DD-32423649DBD1@csperkins.org> <035501d0711a$7856b0a0$690411e0$@gmail.com>
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Cc: secdir@ietf.org, payload@ietf.org, jspittka@gmail.com, iesg@ietf.org, payload-chairs@tools.ietf.org, koenvos74@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload-rtp-opus-08
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Does anyone object to this earlier proposal? "Opus does not provide any built-in confidentiality or integrity protection. Protection requirements vary between RTP applications. See RFC 7201 and RFC 7202 for a discussion." If not, that's probably what should go in the RFC (assuming it works for Kathleen Moriarty's DISCUSS too). Jean-Marc On 07/04/15 06:06 AM, Roni Even wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- From: payload >> [mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Colin Perkins >> Sent: 06 April, 2015 9:50 PM To: Robert Sparks Cc: >> secdir@ietf.org; payload@ietf.org; jspittka@gmail.com; >> iesg@ietf.org; payload-chairs@tools.ietf.org; >> koenvos74@gmail.com; Derek Atkins Subject: Re: [payload] [secdir] >> sec-dir review of > draft-ietf-payload-rtp-opus-08 >> >> On 6 Apr 2015, at 19:44, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> >> wrote: >>> inline (particularly for Derek) On 4/6/15 11:13 AM, Ben >>> Campbell wrote: >>>> On 6 Apr 2015, at 11:09, Derek Atkins wrote: >>>> >>>>> "Timothy B. Terriberry" <tterribe@xiph.org> writes: >>>>> >>>>>> Ben Campbell wrote: >>>>>>>> So my suggestion would be something more to the >>>>>>>> effect of: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Opus does not provide any built-in confidentiality >>>>>>>> or integrity protection. Protection requirements vary >>>>>>>> between RTP applications. See RFC 7201 and RFC 7202 >>>>>>>> for a discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> This seems like reasonable text to me. I agree with the >>>>>> rationale that preceded it. As much as I want to see >>>>>> encryption everywhere, a payload format is not the right >>>>>> place to mandate it. >>>>> >>>>> As was stated already in this thread, the expected follow >>>>> up drafts for MTI security have not been written. >>>>> >>>>> I leave it up to the Security ADs who have the real power >>>>> here, but I still prefer my original wording (including the >>>>> SHOULD). >>>>> >>>>> I understand your reluctance because it's a codec, but it's >>>>> the first codec to get through the process since the >>>>> Perpass work, which basically says "everything should be >>>>> encrypted." Since you cannot go back in time to modify the >>>>> existing RFCs, you can augment them going forward by other >>>>> additions. >>>>> >>>>> As for the concern about "different security requirements >>>>> for different codecs", frankly I don't buy that argument. >>>>> Either your RTP application supports security or it >>>>> doesn't. Once it does, it should be able to negotiate that >>>>> along side the codec negotitation. So I don't see the >>>>> concern -- we're not mandating a specific security >>>>> technology, just that you SHOULD use one. Well, that's >>>>> true regardless of the codec, isn't it? >>>>> >>>>> Or are you really saying "We don't care about security. We >>>>> just want to be able to use this codec in existing, >>>>> insecure RTP applications without adding new securty >>>>> measures"? >>>> >>>> I'm saying this is the wrong layer to solve the problem. >>>> >>>> We had some work planned to better specify this in general >>>> for RTP. I > think >> the right answer is finish that work. If we do that right, it >> should apply regardless of codec. >>>> >>> That's exactly right. >>> >>> We've had this conversation several times before. The >>> individual payload >> documents are not the place to add the kind of guidance Derek is >> asking > for. >> They should be about how you put things in RTP, not how >> applications use > (and >> secure RTP), unless there's something unique about the payload >> that > interacts >> with the general mechanics for using and securing RTP. >>> >>> Stephen will remember that we've queued up work on a document >>> that would >> describe securing unicast RTP set up with SDP (capturing the >> outcome of > the >> rtpsec bof at IETF68). The last I heard on the subject Dan Wing >> was taking > the >> token to work on that document, but it's been awhile. That's >> where the > effort >> should focus - an individual payload document is not the right >> place. >> >> +1 >> >> As Robert, and others, say, RTP payload format documents are not >> the right place to mandate security mechanisms. This is the point >> of RFC7202, which > is >> about how strong security can best be defined for classes of RTP > applications. >> This is not in conflict with the perpass work, since the goal of >> RFC7202 > is to >> show how to provide strong security. > [Roni Even] What Colin says +1 > >> >> -- Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ payload mailing >> list payload@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload > > _______________________________________________ payload mailing > list payload@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVI8WrAAoJEJ6/8sItn9q9czQH/jWr/wOYnF/Np5pyGT/VVLQ4 CtfYkhfI3FlwZzz0xldUW7pkiiXMXAV99pQHVV85JQ+yBjpYS+TgScoLmlXKftqt Et41PYxD4MTA/HMqR+ayIXEwu0xLKGKZiCzeI3/4eyJq2yrMa/LoYv0E+2d9+Eow isDpaXfayJ8OmpAEml52ErJm3bRdvuEioIarVgFqgA+jBg8F01jU34PHcw18ppnK c93yERmrCK8wDizGYnICrRpdnLojKZ3aR+xfdFGW3JA5XbkGyR3uJc6ACM7r2ap1 UjkYSYviOjSVk2vRnNzqi1pcnTpTjuWxE+GQTJ9o+rr1M3zESWBvYoLVyaenAQg= =iesF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Robert Sparks
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Roni Even
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Roni Even
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Roni Even
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Magnus Westerlund
- [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload-rtp… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Roni Even
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Derek Atkins