Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload-rtp-opus-08
"Roni Even" <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> Tue, 07 April 2015 10:06 UTC
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From: Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com>
To: 'Colin Perkins' <csp@csperkins.org>, 'Robert Sparks' <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
References: <sjmoaosz53h.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <54E3A32F.2010008@jmvalin.ca> <760B7D45D1EFF74988DBF5C2122830C24D064CDE@szxpml507-mbx.exmail.huawei.com> <sjmk2zdzv6g.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <916F29B3-E392-481B-A269-FBA58DFEF14D@nostrum.com> <551C612B.4030702@mozilla.com> <C3DD8EE5-B066-4C06-99F4-B9147A128811@nostrum.com> <C17AE3D5-F62D-42A3-9F1F-885BF1B984EB@nostrum.com> <551EFB9C.4040504@xiph.org> <sjmy4m5grwp.fsf@securerf.ihtfp.org> <269A06E2-6704-4E5E-BBFD-92F157639261@nostrum.com> <5522D40E.8040402@nostrum.com> <73626E80-1EBA-4A85-83DD-32423649DBD1@csperkins.org>
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2015 13:06:05 +0300
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Cc: secdir@ietf.org, payload@ietf.org, jspittka@gmail.com, iesg@ietf.org, payload-chairs@tools.ietf.org, koenvos74@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload-rtp-opus-08
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> -----Original Message----- > From: payload [mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Colin Perkins > Sent: 06 April, 2015 9:50 PM > To: Robert Sparks > Cc: secdir@ietf.org; payload@ietf.org; jspittka@gmail.com; iesg@ietf.org; > payload-chairs@tools.ietf.org; koenvos74@gmail.com; Derek Atkins > Subject: Re: [payload] [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload-rtp-opus-08 > > On 6 Apr 2015, at 19:44, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote: > > inline (particularly for Derek) > > On 4/6/15 11:13 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > >> On 6 Apr 2015, at 11:09, Derek Atkins wrote: > >> > >>> "Timothy B. Terriberry" <tterribe@xiph.org> writes: > >>> > >>>> Ben Campbell wrote: > >>>>>> So my suggestion would be something more to the effect of: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "Opus does not provide any built-in confidentiality or integrity > >>>>>> protection. Protection requirements vary between RTP applications. > >>>>>> See RFC 7201 and RFC 7202 for a discussion. > >>>> > >>>> This seems like reasonable text to me. I agree with the rationale > >>>> that preceded it. As much as I want to see encryption everywhere, a > >>>> payload format is not the right place to mandate it. > >>> > >>> As was stated already in this thread, the expected follow up drafts > >>> for MTI security have not been written. > >>> > >>> I leave it up to the Security ADs who have the real power here, but > >>> I still prefer my original wording (including the SHOULD). > >>> > >>> I understand your reluctance because it's a codec, but it's the > >>> first codec to get through the process since the Perpass work, which > >>> basically says "everything should be encrypted." Since you cannot > >>> go back in time to modify the existing RFCs, you can augment them > >>> going forward by other additions. > >>> > >>> As for the concern about "different security requirements for > >>> different codecs", frankly I don't buy that argument. Either your > >>> RTP application supports security or it doesn't. Once it does, it > >>> should be able to negotiate that along side the codec negotitation. > >>> So I don't see the concern -- we're not mandating a specific > >>> security technology, just that you SHOULD use one. Well, that's > >>> true regardless of the codec, isn't it? > >>> > >>> Or are you really saying "We don't care about security. We just > >>> want to be able to use this codec in existing, insecure RTP > >>> applications without adding new securty measures"? > >> > >> I'm saying this is the wrong layer to solve the problem. > >> > >> We had some work planned to better specify this in general for RTP. I think > the right answer is finish that work. If we do that right, it should apply > regardless of codec. > >> > > That's exactly right. > > > > We've had this conversation several times before. The individual payload > documents are not the place to add the kind of guidance Derek is asking for. > They should be about how you put things in RTP, not how applications use (and > secure RTP), unless there's something unique about the payload that interacts > with the general mechanics for using and securing RTP. > > > > Stephen will remember that we've queued up work on a document that would > describe securing unicast RTP set up with SDP (capturing the outcome of the > rtpsec bof at IETF68). The last I heard on the subject Dan Wing was taking the > token to work on that document, but it's been awhile. That's where the effort > should focus - an individual payload document is not the right place. > > +1 > > As Robert, and others, say, RTP payload format documents are not the right > place to mandate security mechanisms. This is the point of RFC7202, which is > about how strong security can best be defined for classes of RTP applications. > This is not in conflict with the perpass work, since the goal of RFC7202 is to > show how to provide strong security. [Roni Even] What Colin says +1 > > -- > Colin Perkins > https://csperkins.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > payload mailing list > payload@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Robert Sparks
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Roni Even
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Roni Even
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Roni Even
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Jean-Marc Valin
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Colin Perkins
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [secdir] [payload] sec-dir review of draft-ie… Magnus Westerlund
- [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload-rtp… Derek Atkins
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Roni Even
- Re: [secdir] sec-dir review of draft-ietf-payload… Derek Atkins