[TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybrid ECDHE-MLKEM Key Agreement for TLSv1.3
"D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to> Thu, 27 February 2025 11:52 UTC
Return-Path: <djb-dsn2-1406711340.7506@cr.yp.to>
X-Original-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C2B2B5356 for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Thu, 27 Feb 2025 03:52:12 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.197
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietfa.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5nSCI1GcLmAz for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Thu, 27 Feb 2025 03:52:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: from salsa.cs.uic.edu (salsa.cs.uic.edu [131.193.32.108]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F5802B5351 for <tls@ietf.org>; Thu, 27 Feb 2025 03:52:11 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 32030 invoked by uid 1010); 27 Feb 2025 11:52:10 -0000
Received: from unknown (unknown) by unknown with QMTP; 27 Feb 2025 11:52:10 -0000
Received: (qmail 645091 invoked by uid 1000); 27 Feb 2025 11:51:58 -0000
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2025 11:51:58 -0000
Message-ID: <20250227115158.645089.qmail@cr.yp.to>
From: "D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to>
To: tls@ietf.org
Mail-Followup-To: tls@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: <68EDF12D-1C97-4823-AFFE-19BF261D7034@sn3rd.com>
Message-ID-Hash: ZZEU2BNQOXIDPUBEXLO3YDADVRXRABJL
X-Message-ID-Hash: ZZEU2BNQOXIDPUBEXLO3YDADVRXRABJL
X-MailFrom: djb-dsn2-1406711340.7506@cr.yp.to
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybrid ECDHE-MLKEM Key Agreement for TLSv1.3
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/mt4_p95NZv8duZIJvJPdZV90-ZU>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:tls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:tls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:tls-leave@ietf.org>
During a LAMPS discussion of another ML-KEM draft, I started tracking two BCP 79 compliance issues triggered by the patent situation, with a structured presentation of the arguments and counterarguments: https://cr.yp.to/2025/bcp-79-issues.html As far as I can see, the same considerations apply to this TLS draft. The easy way to resolve the first issue is the "modify draft to allow alternatives to Kyber" fix, which can be applied after adoption, so it's not an argument against adoption. However, the second issue can't be similarly deferred if change control has to be transferred by adoption time---which is my understanding of how IETF operates. BCP 79 doesn't make this schedule clear, but RFC 7221 says "Remind current draft owners that they are transferring change control for the document to the IETF". ---D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybrid EC… Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… David Benjamin
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] WG Adoption Call for Post-Qu… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Christopher Wood
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Christopher Patton
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Joseph Birr-Pixton
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: WG Adoption Call for Pos… Mike Ounsworth
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… David Benjamin
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: WG Adoption Call for Pos… Mike Ounsworth
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Martin Thomson
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: WG Adoption Call for Pos… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Russ Housley
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Christopher Wood
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… David Benjamin
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… David Adrian
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Mike Shaver
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Arnaud Taddei
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Thom Wiggers
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Andrew Scott
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for Post-Quantum Hybri… Kris Kwiatkowski