Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141bis document
Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> Mon, 26 November 2012 15:47 UTC
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 07:47:23 -0800
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com>
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Subject: Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141bis document
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On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 4:47 AM, Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com> wrote: > I'm not sure how useful it is to "capture the answer to the question: will this identifier ever by reassigned in the normal course of business?" > > I think the question was "why bother with the extra four 'urn:' letters, rather than just invent a new scheme?" and it's as useful to say that about blah:stuff as it is about urn:blah:stuff, and if you are handed a URL of the form "urn:blah:stuff" where you know nothing about "blah", you have no more information than you would have given "blah:stuff". > If you mean, could the group have made "This is guaranteed not to change, for some value of guaranteed" part of the meta-data in the registration, rather than something signaled in the URI string, sure. But as I'm sure you remember, there were visions at the time of using a different resolution service to find instances of the thing-that-a-urn-represents; had that turned out to be a common resolution mechanism, then having a common signal to use it makes sense. That's not quite the language in RFC 2276, but I think the presumption of an RDS was a driver for using a unique string. Is it worth changing now, and converting existing URNs? Certainly not, as that would violate the principle they were built under. Could you now build a URI that had the same characteristics as a URN, but did not use the string? Yep. The IESG historically would have asked you "why isn't this a URN?", but since we're making registration highly permissive, I'm not sure that they would really need an answer. > (blah = uuid & stuff cryptographically securely randomly generated or not). > > I think you will have trouble defining "reassigned" and "normal course of business"... > > During the normal course of business http://host/path always means > >>> talk to the host named "host", using whatever protocol is currently meant by "http", asking for "/path" <<<< > > You probably mean something else by "reassigned", but there's a devil in the details of what it means in operational terms that make sense. > I mean "the registration authority, the laws of physics, or some mathematical principle state that if I have associated *this* URN with *that* resource, it will never be associated with a different resource during the likely lifetime of our civilization". DNS names are re-assigned far more frequently than that. regards, Ted > The theory I'm working on links persistence to meaning, in that, within a communication from Alice, through a repository R, to Bob, > that includes a URL/URI/URN/IRI > > A --- U ---> R > R --- U --> B > > Where the two transactions are time-offset, that the intention of meaning by A for U is tied directly to the expected persistent behavior of B when interpreting U. > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ted Hardie [mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:39 AM >> To: Larry Masinter >> Cc: Renato Iannella; urn@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141bis document >> >> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:58 AM, Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com> >> wrote: >> >> Hi Larry....as we all know, it is impossible to say that _anything_ will be >> >> persistent (even beyond our lifetimes) in this industry. >> >> While I agree that there is no way to say that anything aiming to be >> persistent will succeed, I do think it is useful to capture the answer >> to the question: will this identifier ever by reassigned in the >> normal course of business? There are lots of reasons why you can be >> wrong in the answer you give, but the answer is useful. >> >> This is also, oddly enough, why I think UUID URNs are just fine, even >> though they do not have an organizational guarantee--the cryptographic >> guarantee they provide is at least as good as the typical >> human-managed system. So I can look at one in a system and understand >> that it is meant to be unique. >> >> Just my personal view, of course, >> >> Ted
- [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141bis d… Andrew Newton
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… SM
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Barry Leiba
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Svensson, Lars
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Andrew Newton
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Bengt Neiss
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Julian Reschke
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Alfred Hönes
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Larry Masinter
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Renato Iannella
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Larry Masinter
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Ted Hardie
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Larry Masinter
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Ted Hardie
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Keith Moore
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [urn] call for comments: an alternative 2141b… Ted Hardie