Re: [xml2rfc-dev] RFC 7991 issue #37: Schema Issue, RFC 7991, In Section 2.12, <br>

["HANSEN, TONY L" <[e-mail]>]

(Trying to catch up with some of these emails.) Yes, I DID do extensive analysis of the use of <vspace/> in existing XML files, but I cannot find the emails that I sent back then.

The gist of the analysis was that the only use of <vspace/> that both 1) had considerable use and 2) couldn't be handled through other means, was within table cells. There was a move afoot at the time to remove the capability entirely, and these counterarguments are what lead to the inclusion of <br/> at least for the limited use within tables that we got. I don't think those use cases have gone away and we should not remove the ability to force a line break when it is absolutely needed. I don't really care whether that ability is spelled <vspace/>, <br/>, <tbr/> or whatever.

I'll keep looking for the emails and the results of my analysis back then.

	Tony

On 10/3/18, 10:28 PM, "xml2rfc-dev on behalf of Jim Schaad" <[e-mail] on behalf of [e-mail]> wrote:

    
    
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: xml2rfc-dev <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Henrik
    > Levkowetz
    > Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2018 4:48 PM
    > To: Julian Reschke <[e-mail]>; Paul Hoffman
    > <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
    > Subject: Re: [xml2rfc-dev] RFC 7991 issue #37: Schema Issue, RFC 7991, In
    > Section 2.12, <br>
    > 
    > On 2018-10-03 17:08, Julian Reschke wrote:
    > > On 10/3/2018 2:53 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
    > >> Hi Julian,
    > >>
    > >> On 2018-10-03 14:19, Julian Reschke wrote:
    > >>> On 10/3/2018 2:13 PM, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
    > >>>> ...
    > >>>> Yes, I've run that through the current text processor, and I
    > >>>> particularly looked at it when working on table rendering.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Where is it you need <br> to make this come out right?
    > >>>
    > >>> In the titles, at least if we want to reproduce what the RFC has.
    > >>
    > >> Thank you for that.  It provides much better understanding of the
    > >> case which prompted the introduction of <br>.
    > >>
    > >> Now, the new v3 feature which cost absolutely most extra work to
    > >> implement, by far, was the addition of table rowspan capability.
    > >
    > > I feel your pain.
    > >
    > >> If it really is imperative to break a column title in one particular
    > >> place (and I agree it may be desirable) then why can't it be handled
    > >> by using rowspan for the other header cells, and two cells for the
    > >> particular column title that needs to be broken in a controlled manner?
    > >
    > > Example, please?
    > 
    > Umm?  Take the table you pointed at, give each header cell rowspan="2",
    > except the cell(s) where you want a particular line break, and put the first part
    > in the first cell and the second part in the second cell.
    > 
    > >> And second, why is this a concern in a column header, and not, for
    > >> instance in the document title?
    > >>
    > >> This is the result of a too long document title today (an actual
    > >> example as rendered by the v3 text renderer):
    > >>
    > >> ---
    > >> Network Working Group                                       H. Levkowetz
    > >> Internet-Draft                                              Elf Tools AB
    > >> Intended status: Informational                            3 October 2018
    > >> Expires: 6 April 2019
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>         Implementation notes for RFC7991, "The 'xml2rfc' Version 3
    > >>                                Vocabulary"
    > >>             draft-levkowetz-xml2rfc-v3-implementation-notes-04
    > >
    > > In the past, we have worked around that by using non-breaking spaces
    > > where we want to keep things together. I doubt that the same approach
    > > would work well in narrow table cells...
    > 
    > Why not?  There's no mathematical difference between the two cases.
    > 
    > >> ...
    > >>> That is true, but I'm prepared to argue that if they want to enforce
    > >>> a line break in running text, they are doing something wrong.
    > >>
    > >> But can we be so sure of that, that it's right to enforce the current
    > >> limitation?  Had you thought of the case of a document title, above?
    > >
    > > Yes.
    > 
    > Ok, good.  In that case I really don't understand why <br> wasn't provided for
    > document titles (and section titles, too, where I've also come across similar
    > issues for long titles).
    > 
    > >> Might there not be other cases?  Maybe it would be better to permit
    > >> it, and maybe (at least in some cases) issue a warning?
    > >
    > > Or we can wait for this to become an issue.
    > 
    > No, the chance we have to get this right is now.  We have a first iteration, and
    > thanks for all the work that went into it, but let's now polish it based on explicit
    > experience, to make it even better.
    > 
    > > We *could* analyze the set of RFC XML source documents for where
    > > vspace is currently used.
    > 
    > Yes, that would provide additional meaningful data.
    
    I have a vague memory that Tony did look at this so it might be on the old discussion group list.
    
    Jim