Re: [Banana] Charter
"Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)" <sgundave@cisco.com> Mon, 18 September 2017 19:44 UTC
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From: "Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)" <sgundave@cisco.com>
To: Margaret Cullen <mrcullen42@gmail.com>, "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
CC: "Zhangmingui (Martin)" <zhangmingui@huawei.com>, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>, "banana@ietf.org" <banana@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Banana] Charter
Thread-Index: AQHS/w5lhWOFLy/yHEWQ/Po5rcE+YqJYdBGAgFsJ04CAADjYAIAArB+AgAGr8wCAALSfAIAEmiqAgABd/AD//5ILgA==
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 19:43:50 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Banana] Charter
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Hi Margaret, It is not just the question of counting hands in the room, I do not think that¹s the criteria for ³consensus² determination. We all have been in IETF long enough and we know that does not mean any thing. Sure, there may be few excited researchers/students who have no skin in the game to express interest in the work, but Standardization should have a product path. Are the key network vendors who have skin in the game have expressed interest for this work? Is there SDO interest from 3GPP, Wireless or Broadband guys? Clearly, I do not see that and there is no support for this work. Also, many folks asked why there is a need for a new signaling protocol. When I asked this question, some explicit text was added to say something along the lines, ³WG will not define a new signaling protocol, unless the existing protocols do not meet the requirement². I remember Mirja commenting on that and the chairs editing the text (Mirja can comment if I am wrong here). But, the below charter text conveniently removed that entire text and now shows a milestone for the signaling work. So, the work is getting steered not based on consensus, but on a pre-determined path. Bottomline, this work has no support. There is no vendor, SDO or operator interest; we need to have additional discussions. This is a classic case for IESG Appeal. ‹- € Specify a signalling protocol that can be used to send control information between BANANA Boxes, including: € IP Prefixes of access links € Information about link status and properties (including congestion) € Information needed by BANANA Encapsulations € Determining which flows are/are not eligible for BANANA Encapsulation € Select (and extend, if necessary) an existing tunneling encapsulation (e.g. GRE) for sending traffic between BANANA Boxes. € Feb 2019 WGLC on signaling protocol ‹- Sri > Feb 2019 WGLC on signaling protocol On 9/18/17, 12:18 PM, "Banana on behalf of Margaret Cullen" <banana-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mrcullen42@gmail.com> wrote: >Hi Wim, > >I have heard and understand that you do not feel that we should proceed >with this work without a (potentially lengthy) process to document the >requirements, do gap analysis, etc. That opinion was raised at the BOF >meeting in Prague, as well, where several people said that they did not >support going through that sort of process, and our AD, Suresh, told us >that he wouldn¹t charter this group to go through that sort of process. >At the end of the BOF, when we asked the questions, a large majority of >the people who responded indicated that they thought the problem was >clear and well understood, and that the charter represented work we >should do in the IETF. I understand that there are a few of you who feel >differently, and you are welcome to express your opinions, but I would >say that there was a fairly strong agreement of the people in the room in >Prague _not_ to change the charter to include a requirements/gap analysis >phase, so I am not planning to do so. > >Margaret > > >> On Sep 18, 2017, at 9:42 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) >><wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote: >> >> Margaret, GRE is one thing, but on top is the deliverables as outlined >>in the charter. >> >> In a situation like this we should first do requirements and check gaps >>with existing protocols to ensure we go down the right direction. Given >>the scope is specified as multi-operator OTT deployment we need to >>ensure we understand all these implications. >> >> Referring to this: >> Milestones >> € Apr 2018 Adopt WG draft for provisioning/configuration mechanism >> € Apr 2018 Adopt WG draft for signaling protocol >> € Apr 2018 Adopt WG draft(s) for tunnel encapsulation(s) >> € Feb 2019 WGLC on provisioning/configuration mechanism >> € Feb 2019 WGLC on signaling protocol >> € Feb 2019 WGLC on tunnel encapsulation(s) >> € Aug 2019 Send provisioning/configuration mechanism to the IESG >> € Aug 2019 Send signalling protocol to the IESG >> € Aug 2019 Send tunnel encapsulation(s) to the IESG >> >> On 15/09/2017, 17:25, "Margaret Cullen" <mrcullen42@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> Given the concerns about GRE and NATs, perhaps it would make sense >>to remove the explicit mention of GRE from the charter and add some >>wording about traversal of NATs and other middle boxes? Maybe something >>along these lines? >> >> OLD: >> The Bandwidth Aggregation solutions developed in this group will be >>designed to work in multi-provider scenarios (i.e. they will not depend >>on all of the aggregated links being provided by a single Internet >>access provider). >> >> NEW: >> The Bandwidth Aggregation solutions developed in this group will be >>designed to work in multi-provider scenarios (i.e. they will not depend >>on all of the aggregated links being provided by a single Internet >>access provider, and they will be designed to work across NATs and other >>middle boxes, as needed). >> >> OLD: >> Select (and extend, if necessary) an existing tunneling >>encapsulation (e.g. GRE) for sending traffic between BANANA Boxes. >> >> NEW: >> Select (and extend, if necessary) an existing tunneling >>encapsulation for sending traffic between BANANA boxes. >> >> Do people think these changes would be an improvement to the >>existing charter text? If there are no objections over the next few >>days, I will make these changes to the online charter text. >> >> Margaret >> >> >>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 12:39 AM, Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) >>><wim.henderickx@nokia.com> wrote: >>> >>> The issue I have here is the following. We are chartering a new WG to >>>solve a certain problem. >>> The charter already hints to GRE while we have not understood the >>>requirements and have looked at what the best solution would be to >>>accommodate these requirements. The environment in the charter is >>>multi-operator, which means we will have to deal with NAT in multiple >>>ways as long as we intend to use v6. >>> >>> So, the issue I have with the charter in general is that we are trying >>>to define a protocols/signalling extensions, while we have not >>>understood the requirements and have done a gap analysis regarding >>>this. The first thing that should happen is look at the requirements >>>and more importantly look at the algorithms we would need to >>>accommodate these requirements. After do gap analysis for the existing >>>protocols and then define the potential extensions. In the last step we >>>should even see if other WG are not already suited to handle this >>>activity. >>> >>> On 14/09/2017, 07:07, "Zhangmingui (Martin)" <zhangmingui@huawei.com> >>>wrote: >>> >>> Hi Alex, >>> >>> If "GRE passthrough NAT" was proved to be really required, there are >>>two options: >>> 1. GRE in UDP while the UDP provides you the port number. >>> 2. The GRE Key field to be used to carry the port number. >>> For the second option, there are some existing implementations. But >>>it is not an option if the Key field has already used for other >>>purpose, e.g., security. >>> >>> However, I would say the popular usage is that the NAT happens just >>>before the GRE tunnel. Why do we have to insert a NAT device in between >>>two GRE tunnel endpoints? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Mingui >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: Banana [banana-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Henderickx, Wim >>>(Nokia - BE/Antwerp) [wim.henderickx@nokia.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 0:51 >>> To: mrcullen42@gmail.com >>> Cc: Alexandre Petrescu; banana@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Banana] Charter >>> >>> How will you sent GRE through NAT. GRE has no port number >>> >>> On 13/09/2017, 17:27, "mrcullen42@gmail.com" <mrcullen42@gmail.com> >>>wrote: >>> >>> Hi Wim, >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> If I hear GRE as a proposal it is very NAT unfriendly and the >>>>solution need to work across multiple providers, so this is an >>>>important consideration. >>> >>> Sorry, I somehow dropped this thread while I was in vacation... >>> >>> Why do you think that (all) GRE-based proposal(s) would be NAT >>>unfriendly? >>> >>> Margaret >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Banana mailing list >>> Banana@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/banana >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Banana mailing list >Banana@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/banana
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Wasserman
- Re: [Banana] Charter N.Leymann
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Dave Dolson
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones philip.eardley
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Dave Dolson
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Jordan Melzer
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones David Allan I
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Jordan Melzer
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones David Allan I
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones David Allan I
- Re: [Banana] [ALU] Re: Charter Text w/Milestones Muley, Praveen (Nokia - US/Mountain View)
- Re: [Banana] [ALU] Re: Charter Text w/Milestones Zhangmingui (Martin)
- Re: [Banana] [ALU] Re: Charter Text w/Milestones Philipp S. Tiesel
- Re: [Banana] [ALU] Re: Charter Text w/Milestones Muley, Praveen (Nokia - US/Mountain View)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] [ALU] Re: Charter Text w/Milestones Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Jordan Melzer
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] [ALU] Re: Charter Text w/Milestones pierrick.seite
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Jordan Melzer
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Margaret Wasserman
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Text w/Milestones Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [Banana] Charter Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [Banana] Charter Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Muley, Praveen (Nokia - US/Mountain View)
- Re: [Banana] Charter mrcullen42
- Re: [Banana] Charter mrcullen42
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Zhangmingui (Martin)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Muley, Praveen (Nokia - US/Mountain View)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter David Allan I
- Re: [Banana] Charter Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Zhangmingui (Martin)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [Banana] Charter HeidemannC
- Re: [Banana] Charter N.Leymann
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Tommy Pauly
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Wasserman
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Wasserman
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter philip.eardley
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter David Sinicrope
- Re: [Banana] Charter Florin Baboescu
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Suresh Krishnan
- Re: [Banana] Charter Zhangmingui (Martin)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter David Sinicrope
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Joerg Deutschmann
- Re: [Banana] Charter N.Leymann
- Re: [Banana] Charter Mirja Kühlewind
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [Banana] Charter David Sinicrope
- Re: [Banana] Charter Margaret Cullen
- Re: [Banana] Charter David Sinicrope