Re: [Eligibility-discuss] Handling the fear of "bogus" recall petitions

["Adrian Farrel" <[e-mail]>]

>> But let's take a leaf out of Ekr's book and try to understand
>> what problem you are solving.
>>
>> I think you are worried about "gaming the system". So, what
>> is the real risk?
>
> Fair question.  To me it’s not just a matter of gaming the system, 
> but a matter of acculturation or having a stake in the organization’s
> proper function.  Someone who has shown up relatively consistently
> demonstrates that interest.  People who have had work accepted at
> some level by the organization are similar examples.

Hmmm. I think I start to see your point, but when you talk about acculturation you are not talking about the effect/risk you want to avoid, but about the possible cause.

So, if I might rephrase, you are worried about:
- gaming the system (as previously noted)
- not understanding the IETF culture and attempting
  to make it that which it is not.

I hope I have that right.

Asides from the fact that that leads to perpetuation and ossification, I think we are agreed that "some level" of established participation is required.

Now, I would argue that physically attending three IETF meetings does not do much more than show financial support from a sponsor organisation. I might even suggest that there are a few people who have attended a number of IETF meetings who really have no clue how the IETF works: they "vote" on mailing lists; they post individual drafts and are upset that no one converted them to RFCs; they don't read the drafts. So let's not make the barriers for remote participants such that we embarrass ourselves.

On the other hand, I do agree that we need to see remote participants as, in some sense, full participants before considering that they can start a recall. So we are just arguing about the detail.

You (it seems to me) are suggesting a large number of potential criteria against which we can measure "involvement". I am looking for a more simple measure just like the 3-of-5 that we apply for physical presence where we don't additionally require co-authoring of I-Ds or some such. 

I think we could arrive at an easy bar such as 5-of-6 when less than 3 have been physical. And I'm happy to talk about that. But the question of "culture" comes down to this: what is the IETF culture and where is it documented? Do I understand the IETF culture? Do you? 

Best,
Adrian