Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Wed, 01 May 2019 00:51 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 17:50:51 -0700
Message-ID: <CABcZeBPh6dnXGMrnR1ZdHU9Te6uC=39mYPxPaw7N0HV-6sAjOQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: IASA 2 WG <iasa20@ietf.org>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
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Subject: Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis
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On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 5:34 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: > > (Sorry, ignore the last mail, hit send too soon.) > > Hiya, > > On 01/05/2019 01:11, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 4:02 PM Stephen Farrell < > stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> > > wrote: > > > >> > >> Hiya, > >> > >> On 30/04/2019 23:49, John Levine wrote: > >>> In article <3e8222ce-45dd-41c2-71cd-1adf99760238@cs.tcd.ie> you write: > >>>> ISTM that the fixed-term with re-appointment model for > >>>> the RSE role inherently means not filling that role by > >>>> hiring an LLC employee. > >>>> > >>>> Where am I wrong in the above? > >>> > >>> It depends where the employee is. > >> > >> Yes. As I explicitly said in my mail. > >> > >> My point being that we don't want to constrain selection of > >> an RSE based on geographic variations in employment law. For > >> this role, that could be a significant constraint. > >> > > > > This seems like an argument for giving the LLC *more* latitude here, > > because as this discussion has shown, there are places where it's > > advantageous to have people with whom you have a long-term > > engagement be a contractor and others where it's advantageous > > to have them be an employee. > > I interpret things differently. The contractor arrangement seems > to me to fit the RSE role regardless of geography. But this is precisely the point that John, Richard, and I have been making, namely that it's actually *not* clear that the contractor arrangement is a good fit for the RSE role in certain jurisdictions. In contrast > employee arrangements seem like a total misfit for at least > countries like Ireland (perhaps most of the EU?). And I do not > want the LLC to have fictional flexibility that really represents > a cumbersome constraint when it comes to RSE selection. > In what way is this flexibility a constraint. > So, I'm not sure I follow your argument here, which seems to be that > > you think we ought to constrain the LLC in this respect. > > I do think we ought do that. Sorry if I've not explained it > sufficiently well. > > Yes, I get that, but it doesn't seem to follow in any way from the arguments you are advancing. >> Here in the US, if you hire a person as a contractor but the the > >>> nature of the job is more like an employee (the so called IRS 20 > >>> questions), the person can file an SS-8 form with the IRS to ask to be > >>> reclassified as an employee. If the IRS agrees, the employer has to > >>> pay unemployment and social security and medicare taxes for the > >>> employee, retroactive to when they were hired. It can be a > >>> significant financial risk for the employer. > >> > >> Yes. But the RSE role has not been "more like an employee" > >> at all. > >> > > > > Without taking a position on the nature of the RSE, > > I believe the IETF has a position on that. (Not that the IETF is > the only entity who may care about the RSE role etc...) > Sorry, what I mean to say is that I am not taking a position on whether the IRS would judge that the RSE was actually an employee. -Ekr
- [Iasa20] 6635bis Sean Turner
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Richard Barnes
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Mike Bishop
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Ted Hardie
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Bob Hinden
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Martin Thomson
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis John Levine
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Christian Huitema
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Russ Housley
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis John Levine
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Richard Barnes
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis John R Levine
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis John R Levine
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis John C Klensin
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis S Moonesamy
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Salz, Rich
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Richard Barnes
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Bob Hinden
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis John Levine
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis John C Klensin
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Ted Hardie
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Richard Barnes
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Richard Barnes
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis John C Klensin
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Ted Hardie
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Sean Turner
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis - RPC contracting Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Richard Barnes
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Richard Barnes
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis John Levine
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis John R Levine
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Bob Hinden
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis John R Levine
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Bob Hinden
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Sarah B
- Re: [Iasa20] employees and contractors in 6635bis Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Ted Hardie
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Iasa20] 6635bis Alissa Cooper