Re: [Idr] WG LC on draft-ietf-idr-rpd-05.txt (7/15 to 7/29/2020)

"Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com> Thu, 23 July 2020 22:37 UTC

Return-Path: <jheitz@cisco.com>
X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063363A07D4 for <idr@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:37:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -9.619
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=aGZdKauG; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=ENFvQa36
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8slSi067tB6S for <idr@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:37:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15A473A07D2 for <idr@ietf.org>; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:37:10 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=13083; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1595543830; x=1596753430; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=hIcFePNpNICQ+LdvOa2DBupTeBQYcM9mm+hikxeUaWI=; b=aGZdKauGjE0rFtFoFyd3aqhqA0D7EHoHG5wTDKt7pCmmP0+kWs6R4Iij M1fXPuCylvFOume95/eIWtx1MX2LOWXN9f/2wzaHgh04Zz1irpdEHuMkx XtKAsXvGGy1U11tyWYdQujRft5mDRcw55kAYVrh/4RRFJBxNHwsWzcqck Q=;
IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3AC6suvR+vdq14df9uRHGN82YQeigqvan1NQcJ65?= =?us-ascii?q?0hzqhDabmn44+7ZhaN6+hxkUXEQojarflDjrmev6PhXDkG5pCM+DAHfYdXXh?= =?us-ascii?q?AIwcMRg0Q7AcGDBEG6SZyibyEzEMlYElMw+Xa9PBtbBdrjfVDNr3z05jkXSV?= =?us-ascii?q?3zMANvLbHzHYjfx828y+G1/cjVZANFzDqwaL9/NlO4twLU48IXmoBlbK02z0?= =?us-ascii?q?jE?=
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CSBQAqEBpf/4QNJK1gHAEBAQEBAQc?= =?us-ascii?q?BARIBAQQEAQFAgUqBIy9RB29YLyyHeQONU5NzhGyCUwNVCwEBAQwBAS0CBAE?= =?us-ascii?q?BhEwCghoCJDgTAgMBAQsBAQUBAQECAQYEbYVcDIVxAQEBAQMSGxMBATgPAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?IEQQBASgHMhQJCAEBBAESCBqDBYF+TQMuAaNEAoE5iGF0gTSDAQEBBYU7GII?= =?us-ascii?q?OCYE4gmyKCBqBQT+BEUOCTT6BBIM7NIMTgi2PPIl2gxaIM5BhCoJdmgqfW5I?= =?us-ascii?q?OnwwCBAIEBQIOAQEFgWojgVdwFYMkUBcCDY4eg3GKVnQ3AgYIAQEDCXyPFgE?= =?us-ascii?q?B?=
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.75,388,1589241600"; d="scan'208,217";a="792967187"
Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 23 Jul 2020 22:37:08 +0000
Received: from XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (xch-aln-001.cisco.com [173.36.7.11]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 06NMb8pG018381 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 23 Jul 2020 22:37:08 GMT
Received: from xhs-rtp-003.cisco.com (64.101.210.230) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:37:08 -0500
Received: from xhs-rtp-003.cisco.com (64.101.210.230) by xhs-rtp-003.cisco.com (64.101.210.230) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:37:07 -0400
Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (64.101.32.56) by xhs-rtp-003.cisco.com (64.101.210.230) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 18:37:07 -0400
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Fw2NN3EVBvgbkuLXCgLw+7p3Ghw8B2+V0ZoJFnx1ULeQGJ/CseSQqVOZJ+5DbpZVNhF8tL6IcrecorM5jK2YXHnCCPX729GMNMsjS47iIwYjngVq/XX2EM1tsek2h1CUsxfK+Y3NF74J7CSYg/WoV8rA6xYK/siQGz9Ng5U29IyU5SMQN1L3a7GylFcUPRdX73Cv560fOGrycfZzFUiE4bTkqpzkTXxpy+NJrYM+jJ6U+lzw+ymEzYgrgY+ts9x6nh88lbcqkwYrD4cAQj0Z7WekSUDMleqpdpG6KegsBLBUrviBwH+Vm2qtRrw6J1Ycm0L2UzrFzXcx1aK0LdVOBw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=EyVhSS6BX55R+oGyqygsfbQp9e6okrcnSNC5Ga9upkw=; b=ljd+H5fZn++kxrKWsLudX8UNy9nDK5xMFcUqM2rUgASLBWilS6mEq1zEmve3DWSxlla1mbocbEvELaROiAGqiTonymVIyrB7OBKVnwwo8JjxaG527EjMJLPDJnFN4kYVFnqCjNPTMVpzQAkXP/6VrLB//HcyirHs6u2E9Xa6LC4ZKsazysAGlJznK7+WjjEHvG4ySK+e9L7kDgAywMJkgte9Nva47O5lhE7GH+3HT1PWEENIhhikIjNzio3rudXChpFwU/OugdIJ672UDuj7PNbxN7CNEMSEpH3Hxz5h6uwp0E35JcYbfdUm6biFvu0N0LkMdd0qdnjKFdTlTJkG/g==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cisco.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cisco.com; dkim=pass header.d=cisco.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-cisco-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=EyVhSS6BX55R+oGyqygsfbQp9e6okrcnSNC5Ga9upkw=; b=ENFvQa365dNUM8dXTo+Kz5rYZjcgw52rZ+PuJC4sX1NGIvuyEhAYOFVXl6OOCIPA4s+aWwNiUwLaTbSAS4ZyrjANuL9703HDivwGB+jf1MBdFDJrPsAKsIbX3VSD6D0DJvkg3s3Wa3q45JQmnTEKF/GPpjtTBLyiPL13dHqxrTc=
Received: from BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:7c::14) by BYAPR11MB2773.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a02:c6::21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3216.24; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 22:37:06 +0000
Received: from BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0a8:f52f:8d8d:ebff]) by BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c0a8:f52f:8d8d:ebff%5]) with mapi id 15.20.3195.028; Thu, 23 Jul 2020 22:37:06 +0000
From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@futurewei.com>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: WG LC on draft-ietf-idr-rpd-05.txt (7/15 to 7/29/2020)
Thread-Index: AdZhId1/r8LrVew2ScuG2HA5ggcnOwABcDLQAAXhb+AAAB3+QAAAbrlA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 22:37:05 +0000
Message-ID: <BYAPR11MB3207A5A462FEE0CC07551943C0760@BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MN2PR13MB2768FA084068B2AC594FCF9F9A760@MN2PR13MB2768.namprd13.prod.outlook.com> <SN6PR13MB2334C4D7D54DE9D8F12F687E85760@SN6PR13MB2334.namprd13.prod.outlook.com> <BYAPR11MB32077F59F573D8A129EFB02AC0760@BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <SN6PR13MB23346310695F957202320F2885760@SN6PR13MB2334.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <SN6PR13MB23346310695F957202320F2885760@SN6PR13MB2334.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: futurewei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;futurewei.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com;
x-originating-ip: [2601:647:5701:46e0:4a3:1f38:ea7d:9e8c]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7841acf5-166f-4bdf-2e73-08d82f58ed86
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB2773:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BYAPR11MB2773995F143281696F8DCCDAC0760@BYAPR11MB2773.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: B0vGfSMtwk4xQ2jL/YqgU/2uTTB+XXbz6h5GGpJkochHBUk9X5DsZrVjDoqpYfcMz3/XwXOZ8rO+gVki96RIHVXuZHuPjqYxHdQjFoK5EiiVCxLmepdWs1utLmCcduyREnaWYl/bWsWKgy/IT5mnu+AKlinTmvjGqhhl6LN/cgZV0FXoXPSFM4dgN5tSUvEi8iTERjZTCsv0hXYCXZL26j9cOufwiHnP2tKqsBB47N2Aags+2CEuhpGr/o7ozR4s2lGS4/lMydhOKrsSO2GWj6v5mMhngHYc8IP969e4+g24b2RIYGZ9wketA6FB1TWh
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(4636009)(396003)(366004)(376002)(346002)(39860400002)(136003)(8936002)(316002)(186003)(55016002)(64756008)(66946007)(478600001)(8676002)(71200400001)(52536014)(66556008)(66476007)(66446008)(76116006)(110136005)(6506007)(5660300002)(2906002)(53546011)(7696005)(9686003)(86362001)(33656002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR11MB3207A5A462FEE0CC07551943C0760BYAPR11MB3207namp_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR11MB3207.namprd11.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7841acf5-166f-4bdf-2e73-08d82f58ed86
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jul 2020 22:37:05.9797 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 4ayebhf7MYuqF6SMpvW4/n6PRYzp91cjeHMk9xnY2NwXV0ZztS+9hAHRIbflqmYAtg+JWrwgheLrDseQ+7+eGw==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB2773
X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com
X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com
X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-10.cisco.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/idr/bHX19vQbqpOPkhwXZ19-L9tyGnI>
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC on draft-ietf-idr-rpd-05.txt (7/15 to 7/29/2020)
X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing <idr.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/idr/>
List-Post: <mailto:idr@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr>, <mailto:idr-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 22:37:12 -0000

Netconf provides needed features that BGP does not have:
- Atomic Transactions:
  If one configuration item fails, they all fail.
  They all either succeed or all fail. There is no partial success.
  Multiple configurations in one transaction are applied at the same time.
   . This avoids non-deterministic transient behavior between application of the first policy and the last.
- Feedback:
  BGP is "spray and pray".
  Netconf provides an acknowledgement that the config either failed or was applied,
  which then allows the controller to take the next steps with
  reliable information about what configuration exists in the network.
- Persistence:
  If the BGP session were to go down, all the configuration it sent will be implicitly withdrawn.

If another AS would not allow a foreign AS to configure it with netconf,
it would not allow it with RPD either.

There are already ways in BGP for an AS to signal preference across AS boundaries:
Med, AS-path length, communities.

Ketan and Robert added other objections.


Regards,
Jakob.

From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@futurewei.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 3:24 PM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>om>; idr@ietf.org
Subject: RE: WG LC on draft-ietf-idr-rpd-05.txt (7/15 to 7/29/2020)

Jakob,

Can you elaborate those automation configuration methods that are much better and less error prone than the proposed one?
It will take a long time to dig through so many IDR emails to find them.

Thank you very much,
Linda Dunbar

From: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com<mailto:jheitz@cisco.com>>
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 5:20 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@futurewei.com<mailto:linda.dunbar@futurewei.com>>; idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WG LC on draft-ietf-idr-rpd-05.txt (7/15 to 7/29/2020)

Of course it's better than manual configuration.
That's not much of an argument, because there are plenty of
automatic configuration methods that are much better and
less error prone than this draft as I and others have pointed
out in previous emails.

Regards,
Jakob.

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 2:57 PM
To: idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC on draft-ietf-idr-rpd-05.txt (7/15 to 7/29/2020)

I support the WGLC for the draft. I think the proposed distribution of policy can scale much better and less error prone than any manual configuration.