Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 words]
Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> Sun, 03 April 2016 13:19 UTC
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Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2016 15:18:57 +0200
Message-ID: <CADnDZ88mpAcx8tQ+btwxs-Rdn_=6RMQ2y3_bDm8MPx+4xxk-Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 words]
From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Cc: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>, "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <rse@rfc-editor.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
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The confusion if occured between English authors may mean that we can get confusions among non-English authors as well, I recommend if a guidance draft is written we will need many non-Enlish native speekers involved. AB On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > There are times when I think RFC2119 was a really bad idea, despite it > having > become probably the most frequently cited RFC (inside and outside the > IETF). > It seems to create as much confusion as it avoids. > > There are four words whose RFC2119 meaning is different from the dictionary > meaning: should, recommended, may and optional. Having special typography > for them is useful, because it signals the RFC2119 meanings. But if a spec > uses, for example, a mixture of SHOULD and should, who knows what the > authors > intended? To that extent, the proposed clarification is helpful. > > The other words (must, shall, required, not) mean what they always mean. > The only argument for upper-casing them is aesthetic symmetry. If a spec > uses alternatives like mandatory, necessary or forbidden, they are just as > powerful. > > So > > these definitions are only meaningful if the words are capitalized > can be applied to should, recommended, may and optional if we want, > but strictly doesn't apply to must, shall, required, not, mandatory, > necessary, forbidden, need, or any other such words. > > Where we can get into real trouble is if a spec contains should, > recommended, > may and optional *plus* other non-categorical (fuzzy) words like ought, > encourage, suggest, can, might, allowed, permit (and I did not pull those > words out of the air, but out of draft-hansen-nonkeywords-non2119). What do > they mean? It can be very unclear. If a node receives a message containing > an element covered in the spec by "allowed" instead of "OPTIONAL", is the > receiver supposed to interoperate or to reject the message? > > If we are issuing guidance, it should probably include a specific warning > to use any such fuzzy words with extreme care. > > Brian > On 29/03/2016 03:13, Scott O. Bradner wrote: > > one minor tweak > > > >> On Mar 28, 2016, at 10:09 AM, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> > wrote: > >> > >>> The wishy washy descriptive rather than proscriptive language in the > abstract was because I, > >>> the IESG and the community were not of one mind to say that the use of > such capitalized > >>> terms should be mandatory - quite a few people felt that the english > language was at > >>> least good enough to convey the writer’s intent without having to > aggrandize specific words. > >>> Thus the abstract basically was saying: if you want to use capitalized > words here is a standard > >>> way to say what they mean > >> > >> Ah. Then perhaps the clarification needs to go a little further and > >> make this clear: > >> - We're defining specific terms that specifications can use. > >> - These terms are always capitalized when these definitions are used. > > > > these definitions are only meaningful if the words are capitalized > > > >> - You don't have to use them. If you do, they're capitalized and > >> their meanings are as specified here. > >> - There are similar-looking English words that are not capitalized, > >> and they have their normal English meanings; this document has nothing > >> to do with them. > >> > >> ...and I'd like to add one more, because so many people think that > >> text isn't normative unless it has 2119 key words in all caps in it: > >> > >> - Normative text doesn't require the use of these key words. They're > >> used for clarity and consistency when you want that, but lots of > >> normative text doesn't need to use them, and doesn't use them. > >> > >> Barry > > > > > >
- Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John Leslie
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John C Klensin
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 w… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Eric Gray
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Barry Leiba
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John Levine
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words David Farmer
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dick Franks
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words S Moonesamy
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Tony Finch
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Loa Andersson
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Randy Bush
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Ben Campbell
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Eliot Lear
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Eliot Lear
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Lee Howard
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Ben Campbell
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Warren Kumari
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Cridland
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John C Klensin
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Pat Thaler
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Cridland
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Mark Andrews
- RE: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- RE: [rtcweb] Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question … Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words tom p.
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Lee Howard
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Francis Dupont