Re: Challenge: was Re: Updated Nomcom 2020-2021: Result of random selection process

[Toerless Eckert <[e-mail]>]

Thanks, Michael, inline

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 12:04:50PM -0400, Michael StJohns wrote:
> Hi -
> 
> I hate to do this, but I'm going to be challenging this particular outcome
> as it isn't strictly following the rules - basically, Luigi may not be
> replaced by Tal.  He either serves, or if he declines to serve, the next
> person on the list - not Tal - will be selected.
> 
> Here's my reasoning:
> 
> After Luigi belatedly indicated his association with Huawei, the defined
> process results in him remaining on the list but Tal being disqualified (as
> there being 2 previous Huawei people selected before him).

Can you please do me the favour of pointing to written evidence or prior
examples of this specifically being the process ? I don't remember a
place where the situation of belated disclosure is discussed, nor do
i remember that we had to adjudicate such a case in before. But that
can of coursee just me not remembering/finding such evidence.

If there is no unambiguous evidence as to what you suggesting there is,
then it would be good to understand if there is written rules for who
has the authority to resolve such ambiguous situations. Eg.: NomCom
chair, Michael StJohns or some other authority. Thats maybe written down.

Just helpfull to have the rules explicitly in the thread so not everbody
has to hunt them down.

> If Luigi - at a
> later time - decided he couldn't serve, *_we don't reach back on the list
> for the previously disqualified people, we look forward_* - e.g. Tal once
> disqualfied is no longer a candidate for future pulls.  If the next selected
> (#13 I think) is Huawei, they could serve as Luigi's departure would move
> the Huawei count back down to 1.

Sounds as if i would agree pending on the above listed conditions, wrt process.

> The whole idea of this random draw is that people can't pick and choose to
> substitute someone else for themselves.

Is this a rule, is there prior evidence of this being applied this way,
is this something NomCom chair could/should decide on her own,  are
suggestions from IETF mailing lisst or formal complaint the right process ?

Adjudication by mailing list is difficult, so again: would be good to
first be crisp about whats written down, or what we have as case law.

Of course, i am happy if this "whole idea" was made clear in update to the
rules in case they are not clear, but that can not be retroactive.

> number generator for each additional selection rather than continuing down
> the list to completely eliminate those possibilities, but in the current
> model, I believe Tal is disqualified and will stay that way.
> 
> If Luigi still wants to remove himself, then the next selectee will be the
> one in the 13th position, not Tal in the disqualified 8th.

Thanks for bringing this up. I hope i am not too anal either, but i
think it is helpfull to fully understand the rules and act on them.

Cheers
    Toerless

> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/8/2020 1:09 PM, NomCom Chair 2020 wrote:
> > Luigi Iannone has informed me his affiliation has recently changed to "Huawei". That would make 3 Huawei people, which means one must be disqualified.
> > Luigi requested that, since he was the person who didn't mention this prior to selection, he should be the one removed. I have no problem with this, so I will honor this request rather than removing Tal Mizrahi (as the last of the Huawei people selected).
> > 
> > So, here is the updated list:
> > 
> > 65. Dirk Kutscher, University of Applied Sciences Emden/Leer
> > 114. Ketan Jivan Talaulikar, Cisco Systems, India
> > 127. Christopher Wood, Cloudflare
> > 38. Xuesong Geng, Huawei
> > 121. Rüdiger Volk, no affiliation
> > 86. Gabriel Montenegro, Independent
> > 18. Pablo Camarillo, Cisco Systems
> > 13. Chris Bowers, Juniper Networks
> > 85. Tal Mizrahi, Huawei
> > 94. Tony Przygienda, Juniper
> > 
> > Disqualified selections are noted below:
> > 58. LUIGI IANNONE, Huawei (Maximum of 2 for Huawei reached) - 8th in randomness order, but requested to be the one removed
> > 96. Reshad Rahman, Cisco (Maximum Number of 2 for Cisco reached) - 10th in randomness order
> > 
> > With this updated announcement, the challenge period continues through Wednesday, July 15, 2020 at 23:59 UTC, wherein the community may challenge the results to the NomCom Chair (in writing, by email).  See RFC 8713, Section 4.17 for details.
> > 
> > I will be contacting the selected volunteers to ensure they remain willing and available to serve.
> > 
> > Random selection data used:
> > 
> > ** Random Source 1 - EuroMillions Lottery **
> > ** Date - Tuesday July 7, 2020 **
> > EuroMillions Lottery Results
> > https://www.euro-millions.com/results
> > Tuesday, July 7, 2020 Results (drawn after 21:00 CEST):
> > https://www.euro-millions.com/results/07-07-2020
> > (7 numbers, including the star balls: 5 numbers between 1 and 50 and 2 star balls between 1 and 12)
> > 
> > 12 16 23 33 41 8 10
> > 
> > ** Random Source 2 - US Total Debt **
> > ** Date - Monday July 6, 2020 **
> > US Total Debt
> > https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/pd_debttothepenny.htm
> > Monday July 6, 2020 (as published after 3pm EDT on Tuesday July 7):
> > (Last 8 digits entered as a single number, ignore the commas and periods -- 6 digits before the period and 2 digits after)
> > 
> > 23703560
> > 
> > ** Random Source 3 - Australian TattsLotto **
> > ** Date - Saturday July 4, 2020 **
> > TattsLotto Results
> > https://thelott.com/tattslotto/results
> > Saturday July 4, 2020 results:
> > (6 winning numbers, between 1 and 45; no Supps numbers)
> > 
> > 17 31 33 35 39 42
> > 
> > ** Random Source 4 - Emirates Loto **
> > ** Date - Saturday July 4, 2020 **
> > https://www.emiratesloto.com/loto/winningnumber/previous
> > Saturday July 4 results:
> > (6 winning numbers, between 1 and 49)
> > 
> > 10 20 21 24 26 34
> > 
> > --------------- tool output -----------
> > Key is:
> >   8.10.12.16.23.33.41./23703560./17.31.33.35.39.42./10.20.21.24.26.34./
> > index        hex value of MD5        div  selected
> >   1  270D83B3AFE172BE3DAE13D5AFE10025  143  -> 65 <-
> >   2  FE6FBE4A6FCAEFD6570D957596C0BC9A  142  -> 114 <-
> >   3  AD10AAF6B527062D0E2F0E7B29AD3546  141  -> 127 <-
> >   4  8614C1D4C4EBFACE6A5049AF1F9782CD  140  -> 38 <-
> >   5  7D1EE81F1788AEA0FF359230F8096076  139  -> 121 <-
> >   6  E7013327C78EA666CFA0ADD69E017D37  138  -> 86 <-
> >   7  67135E88868DFC359459BF509920ACBD  137  -> 18 <-
> >   8  ADDCDE6B8985E911E19CC6107B587597  136  -> 58 <-
> >   9  D520F04487BA1AFE92B49AE7C613A7D0  135  -> 13 <-
> > 10  4CC1EA463D3BC82C7009830F8ACDF431  134  -> 96 <-
> > 11  9366F9278BD4CEE289093677432B2C03  133  -> 85 <-
> > 12  A60E734755D605CD1189716F7FB1183E  132  -> 94 <-
> > 
> > Barbara Stark
> > nomcom-chair-2020 at ietf dot org
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > IETF-Announce mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
> 
> 

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