Re: Shuffle those deck chairs!
Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com> Wed, 06 October 2004 20:58 UTC
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To: "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com>
References: <4160048B.9050006@cisco.com> <200410421108.031029@bbprime> <20041005045722.GA30817@thyrsus.com> <41624590.1020906@cisco.com> <20041005080618.GA7313@thyrsus.com>
From: Simon Josefsson <jas@extundo.com>
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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 15:32:18 +0200
In-Reply-To: <20041005080618.GA7313@thyrsus.com> (Eric S. Raymond's message of "Tue, 5 Oct 2004 04:06:18 -0400")
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Subject: Re: Shuffle those deck chairs!
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First, thanks for your two well written posts. They were the first in this thread that reflect views that I share. Over the past week, I've read both the "O" and "C" proposals, and it seems to me they both fail to properly address the problems you bring up. Consequently, in the straw poll, I didn't feel convinced enough to vote for either proposal. At best, they both just miss the point. I wouldn't go as far as saying IETF is part of the open-source community. However, I do believe that if IETF no longer provide a service to the open-source community, IETF will have lost its power in shepherding protocol standardization. I just wanted to share a data point to support your argument: "Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> writes: > You've had two direct warnings about this -- the ASF and Debian open > letters. They interpreted IETF's passivity on the Sender-ID patent > issue as damage and routed around it. If the IETF doesn't get its act > together, that *will* happen again. The open-source community and its > allies will have no choice but to increasingly route around IETF, and > IETF will become increasingly irrelevant. Another growing concern in the community is the license used for IETF documents. The newly adopted copying conditions for RFCs [1] further restrict borrowing of text from RFCs into free software products. If that trend continue, or the current rules are enforced to the letter, free software products will write their own protocol specifications. They would do so to be able to incorporate derivative works into the documentation. IETF could rubber stamp those documents, and publish them as RFCs, but then it would have lost control over the process. The copying condition issue haven't yet reached critical mass, but from what I can tell, it is getting closer and closer. Thanks, Simon [1] Compare <http://www.rfc-editor.org/copyright.html> with the real text in RFC 3667, especially section 7.3. To me, they leave a significantly different impression. The web page imply derivative works can be permitted, but according to RFC 3667, the only organization permitted to produce such derivative works would be ISOC/IETF. _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Thoughts on scenario O Adrian Farrel
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options John C Klensin
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Thoughts on scenario O Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Paul Hoffman / VPNC
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options ned.freed
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Bill Manning
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options avri
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Leif Johansson
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Leif Johansson
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Kai Henningsen
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Kai Henningsen
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options John C Klensin
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Sandy Wills
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options John C Klensin
- Accusations of secrecy (Re: Reminder: Poll about … Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Leslie Daigle
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options John C Klensin
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Yakov Rekhter
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Eliot Lear
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eliot Lear
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Patents (Re: Shuffle those deck chairs!) Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Vernon Schryver
- Re: Patents (Re: Shuffle those deck chairs!) Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Dave Crocker
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Hadmut Danisch
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Ted Hardie
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Ted Hardie
- isoc's skills Dave Crocker
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Scott W Brim
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Scott W Brim
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options John C Klensin
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Randy Presuhn
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Dave Crocker
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Simon Josefsson
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! scott bradner
- Copying conditions (was: Re: Shuffle those deck c… Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions (was: Re: Shuffle those de… scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Copying conditions Eliot Lear
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- Re: Copying conditions JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: Copying conditions Valdis.Kletnieks
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Kai Henningsen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Kai Henningsen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Kai Henningsen
- Re: Copying conditions Kai Henningsen
- Re: Reminder: Poll about restructuring options Kai Henningsen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Florian Weimer
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Florian Weimer
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Florian Weimer
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- Re: Copying conditions Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Copying conditions Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Michael Richardson
- Re: Copying conditions Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Anthony DeRobertis
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Sam Hartman
- Re: Patents (Re: Shuffle those deck chairs!) Dean Anderson
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Dean Anderson
- Re: Copying conditions Florian Weimer
- RE: Copying conditions Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: Copying conditions Florian Weimer
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Dean Anderson
- Re: Patents (Re: Shuffle those deck chairs!) JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: isoc's skills Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Copying conditions scott bradner
- Re: Copying conditions Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Copying conditions Francis Dupont
- Re: isoc's skills Dave Crocker
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Florian Weimer
- RE: isoc's skills Tony Hain
- Re: isoc's skills Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Sam Hartman
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Nathaniel Borenstein
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Simon Josefsson
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! shogunx
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Margaret Wasserman
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- RE: Shuffle those deck chairs! Brian Rosen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Paul Vixie
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Pekka Savola
- RE: Shuffle those deck chairs! RL 'Bob' Morgan
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! shogunx
- RE: Shuffle those deck chairs! Brian Rosen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Pekka Savola
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Michael Richardson
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Dean Anderson
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Pekka Savola
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! shogunx
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Kai Henningsen
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! shogunx
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eric S. Raymond
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! shogunx
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Eliot Lear
- Re: Shuffle those deck chairs! Kai Henningsen
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- Re: Copying conditions Simon Josefsson
- Re: Copying conditions Anthony DeRobertis
- RE: Copying conditions Lawrence Rosen
- Re: Copying conditions Bill Sommerfeld
- Re: Copying conditions Sam Hartman
- RE: Copying conditions Lawrence Rosen