Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation Considered Fragile
tom <tom@herbertland.com> Wed, 29 August 2018 16:53 UTC
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From: tom <tom@herbertland.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 09:53:50 -0700
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To: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, int-area <int-area@ietf.org>, intarea-chairs@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation Considered Fragile
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On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 8:11 AM, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> wrote: > > > > > On 2018-08-28 17:24, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > ...Sure, i meant to imply that port-numbers are useful pragmatically, > but other context identifiers would long term be better. > Demux-Identifiers at the granualarity of a subscriber or > application wold be a lot more scalable than flow identifiers. > > > There are many problems with this issue. > > First, the reason that port numbers would be needed is that they are > *currently* how NATs demux, firewalls enforce policy, and routers manage There is no requirement in IP that all packets have a transport layer header that with port numbers. In fact, there are several that don't have them like IPsec, fragmented packets, or ICMP. Firewalls that drop anything but UDP and TCP are doing nothing more that ossifying the Internet. Besides that, there are now better alternatives anyway. Reassembly for NAT doesn't require any knowledge or port numbers or even what the transport protocol is. Routers can now use the IPv6 flow label instead of expensive DPI to get transport ports for ECMP as all major OSes now set non-zero flow labels. > flows. For each of these, a different identifier could be developed, but > they would not then reduce the need for ALL of these at the IP level at some > boxes. E.g., see draft-touch-tcpm-sno > > Ultimately, we have to admit that a device that acts on behalf of a host IS > a host and costs what a host costs. That in turn breaks the the end-to-end model. Middleboxes that attempt to participate transport protocols, like a host, inevitably break things and hence is another source of ossification. This is readily evident apparent in that they can't participate in end-to-end crypto. Of course they have tried to insert themselves into that realm, but then we get abominations such as the forced MITM attacks of SSL inspection. IMO, real end-to-end security is a core requirement that outweighs any tradeoffs we might make for the security benefits of firewalls. > > We can't keep believing there is magic dust that can establish a solution > otherwise. > As they say, the answer to ossification is encryption. It does a long way to at least force the issue. First TLS negated payload inspection at middelboxes. QUIC's encryption of transport layer header subsequently negated intermediate devices ability to peruse the transport layer. But, crypto isn't magic dust either. There is only so much of the packet we can encrypt, and a host at its discretion MAY want to share to share transport layer information in the network to get better service. So we need to keep working on solutions. Tom > Joe
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation Con… Wassim Haddad
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Black, David
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Black, David
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Wassim Haddad
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… tom
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP Fragmentation… Joe Touch