Re: about violation of standards
Erik Kline <ek@loon.com> Wed, 24 April 2019 20:54 UTC
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From: Erik Kline <ek@loon.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 13:53:48 -0700
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Subject: Re: about violation of standards
To: Yucel Guven <yucel.guven@gmail.com>
Cc: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>, IPv6 <ipv6@ietf.org>, 神明達哉 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp>
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What prevents you from adding a directly connected route to fe80:Y::/64 dev <ifname_with_ifindexY>? On my Linux workstation eno1 has ifindex 2, and I tried the following: ip -6 route add fe80:2::/64 dev eno1 ip -6 route shows: fe80::/64 dev eno1 proto kernel metric 100 pref medium fe80:2::/64 dev eno1 metric 1024 pref medium I then continued with: ip -6 addr add fe80:2::345/64 dev eno1 noprefixroute ip -6 addr shows: inet6 fe80:2::345/64 scope link noprefixroute valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever inet6 fe80::5bcb:c30c:c5e0:d3cf/64 scope link noprefixroute valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever and finally: ip -6 route get fe80:2::123 shows: fe80:2::123 from :: dev eno1 proto kernel src fe80:2::345 metric 100 pref medium so source address selection seems to be working as I would want it to in this situation. I'm not sure what other tests to run, but it seems like you can certainly add fe80:ifindex::/64 routes to each separate device and manually add your IP addresses as you wish...as least with recent Linux. On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 at 12:05, Yucel Guven <yucel.guven@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes, it is: 64 - 10 = 54, and 2^54= 18,014,398,509,481,984 prefixes, not > even 2^48. > > Too much space is allocated/reserved. That's what I think. > > Wasted or not is a different seperate subject, time will show the answer. > > I can not know what the writers of RFC4291 thought or design or plan. > I'm sure they made much more detailed calculations. > > What I clearly understand is that first 10 bits are fixed, and 54 bits > are 0, > and using fe80:1::2 on an interface does not comply with it. > > We should be open to the discussion of updating 4291, that's why we have > draft docs. > > On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 4:42 PM Alexandre Petrescu < > alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> Le 22/04/2019 à 18:37, Yucel Guven a écrit : >> > >> > Hi Jinmei Tatuya, >> > >> > > This logic doesn't make sense to me at all. There was a very widely >> used >> > > implementation of commercial router (I don't name it as it's not my >> > > purpose to pick a particular vendor) that forwarded an IPv6 packet >> > > whose source address is link-local from one link to another link, >> > > instead of returning an ICMPv6 destination unreachable error, code 2, >> > > as specified in RFC4443. >> > >> > That is very interesting point indeed. >> > Do you mean that billions of people's data, information, etc....etc... >> > from their Link-locals >> > can easily be routed to somewhere that no one knows? Just because of >> > "that vendor" (or vendors?) >> > If that's the case, I really wonder about what can be done with >> "127.0.0.1". >> > >> > Anyways, my concern is about huge amount of addresses of the fe80::/10. >> >> I do not understand the concern. >> >> Is the concern that too much space is allocated by fe80::/10? >> >> Or is the concern that too much space is wasted between fe80::/10 and >> fe80::/64? >> >> I know that talking about numbers, and about waste, is a doubly-edged >> sword: one can claim either fe80::/10 or fe80::/64 is a waste. >> >> Alex >> >> > There are 281,474,976,710,655 = 281 Trillion 474 Billion 976 million >> > 710 Thousand 655 addresses >> > in between fe80:0:0:0::/64 and fe80:ffff:ffff:ffff::/64. >> > If we just take fe80:1::/32 or /64, then it breaks RFC4291 due to 54 >> zeros. >> > >> > Is it right time to modify RFC4291? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:03 PM 神明達哉 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp >> > <mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp>> wrote: >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:59 AM Alexandre Petrescu >> > <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com >> >> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > In private conversation this debate happened: >> > >> > > is an implementation that uses fe80:1::2 address on an >> interface a >> > > violation of standards? (RFC 4291 does not allow for '1' to be >> > there). >> > >> > > My point of view is that as long as that mplementation is >> > widely used, >> > > that is not a violation of standards. Rather, the situation >> > makes it >> > > that that standard is not in agreement with implementations.. >> > >> > This logic doesn't make sense to me at all. There was a very widely >> > used >> > implementation of commercial router (I don't name it as it's not my >> > purpose to pick a particular vendor) that forwarded an IPv6 packet >> > whose source address is link-local from one link to another link, >> > instead of returning an ICMPv6 destination unreachable error, code >> 2, >> > as specified in RFC4443. According to that logic, this >> implementation >> > would be considered not violating the RFC "because it's widely >> used"; >> > most people call it an implementation bug. >> > >> > Regarding Linux, I'd note that link-local addresses are >> automatically >> > generated by the system, and the generated address conforms to the >> > format specified in Section 2.5.6 of RFC4291. More specifically, >> its >> > intermediate 54 bits are all set to 0. Plus, as far as I know, the >> > vast majority of people never bother to change the auto-generated >> > link-local addresses. In that sense the use of addresses like >> > "fe80:1::2" are not really widely used, even if the implementation >> > that allows its users to manually configure such addresses is widely >> > used. >> > >> > Almost any implementation has some weapon that allows its user to >> > shoot their feet, often violating protocol standards. An extreme >> case >> > is a tool like bpf, with which you can send out almost any broken >> > packets to the wire. BPF is widely used tools, but as far as I know >> > no one uses the existence of that tool to justify the violation of >> the >> > standard. >> > >> > Now, I'm open to the discussion of possibly updating RFC4291 to >> allow >> > non-0 value in the intermediate 54-bit field, starting from the fact >> > that it currently violates the standard. But I don't buy an >> argument >> > that a behavior against the current standard is not a violation >> simply >> > because there's a system utility of a widely used OS that allows >> that >> > particular behavior. >> > >> > -- >> > JINMEI, Tatuya >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> > ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org> >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >
- Re: about violation of standards Kerry Lynn
- about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Suresh Krishnan
- Re: about violation of standards Kerry Lynn
- Re: about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Kerry Lynn
- Re: about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards 神明達哉
- Re: about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Mark Smith
- Re: about violation of standards Fernando Gont
- Re: about violation of standards 神明達哉
- Re: about violation of standards Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: about v… 神明達哉
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… 神明達哉
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Gyan Mishra
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Gyan Mishra
- Re: about violation of standards Yucel Guven
- Re: about violation of standards 神明達哉
- Re: about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Nick Hilliard
- Re: about violation of standards Gyan Mishra
- Re: about violation of standards Gyan Mishra
- Re: about violation of standards Gyan Mishra
- Re: about violation of standards Gyan Mishra
- Re: about violation of standards Ole Troan
- Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: about v… Mark Smith
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Mark Smith
- RE: about violation of standards Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: about violation of standards Ole Troan
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Philip Homburg
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: about violation of standards Brian E Carpenter
- Re: about violation of standards Gyan Mishra
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Mark Smith
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Gyan Mishra
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… 神明達哉
- Re: about violation of standards Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Mark Smith
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Mark Andrews
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Mark Smith
- Re: about violation of standards - security matte… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards - fe80::1/128 Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards - fe80::1/128 神明達哉
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Ole Troan
- Re: about violation of standards Nick Hilliard
- Re: about violation of standards Yucel Guven
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… 神明達哉
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… 神明達哉
- Re: about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Philip Homburg
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Ole Troan
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Mudric, Dusan (Dusan)
- Re: about violation of standards Yucel Guven
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… 神明達哉
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Mark Andrews
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Mark Smith
- Re: about violation of standards - fe80::1/128 Gyan Mishra
- Re: encoding link ID in link-local addrs (Re: abo… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Mark Smith
- Re: about violation of standards - fe80::1/128 Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Mark Andrews
- Re: encoding Subnet ID in link-local addrs (Re: a… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: easy to remember addresses and /etc/hosts and… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: encoding Subnet ID in link-local addrs - prob… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: easy to remember addresses and /etc/hosts and… Mark Smith
- Re: easy to remember addresses and /etc/hosts and… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: easy to remember addresses and /etc/hosts and… Mark Smith
- Re: easy to remember addresses and /etc/hosts and… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Yucel Guven
- Re: easy to remember addresses and /etc/hosts and… Kerry Lynn
- RE: encoding Subnet ID in link-local addrs (Re: a… Mudric, Dusan (Dusan)
- Re: about violation of standards Erik Kline
- RE: encoding Subnet ID in link-local addrs (Re: a… Manfredi (US), Albert E
- Re: Globally Unique Link Local Addresses (Re: abo… Gyan Mishra
- Reinventing Site-Locals (Re: easy to remember add… Mark Smith
- Re: Reinventing Site-Locals (Re: easy to remember… Mark Smith
- Re: Reinventing Site-Locals (Re: easy to remember… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Gyan Mishra
- Re: about violation of standards Fernando Gont
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Brian Carpenter
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Ole Troan
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Fernando Gont
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: easy to remember addresses and /etc/hosts and… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: encoding Subnet ID in link-local addrs (Re: a… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Gyan Mishra
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change 神明達哉
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Bob Hinden
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Gyan Mishra
- Re: encoding Subnet ID in link-local addrs (Re: a… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Bob Hinden
- Re: Reinventing Site-Locals Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Tim Chown
- Re: disagreement on which OS should change Bob Hinden
- Wireless ND was: about violation of standards Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: Wireless ND was: about violation of standards Philip Homburg
- Re: Wireless ND was: about violation of standards Ole Troan
- RE: Wireless ND was: about violation of standards Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: Wireless ND was: about violation of standards Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: Wireless ND was: about violation of standards Ole Troan
- RE: Wireless ND was: about violation of standards Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: Wireless ND was: about violation of standards Philip Homburg
- RE: encoding Subnet ID in link-local addrs (Re: a… Mudric, Dusan (Dusan)
- Re: encoding Subnet ID in link-local addrs (Re: a… Alexandre Petrescu
- RE: encoding Subnet ID in link-local addrs (Re: a… Mudric, Dusan (Dusan)
- Re: encoding Subnet ID in link-local addrs (Re: a… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: about violation of standards Erik Kline
- Re: about violation of standards Erik Kline