Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023), is IETF keeping its promises?
Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Fri, 06 January 2023 16:59 UTC
Return-Path: <hallam@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: pearg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC79AC1AFF5C; Fri, 6 Jan 2023 08:59:28 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -6.396
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZUsuPzV37rwp; Fri, 6 Jan 2023 08:59:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ot1-f54.google.com (mail-ot1-f54.google.com [209.85.210.54]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 140F5C14F737; Fri, 6 Jan 2023 08:59:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-ot1-f54.google.com with SMTP id j16-20020a056830271000b0067202045ee9so1219483otu.7; Fri, 06 Jan 2023 08:59:24 -0800 (PST)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=aNCtA1CeMLnM2iBIGCCvpW1uVO6EAMCeRxkIcWWnkLU=; b=kTe863wfOrkdI1EU3bA2WnAoTYWUV19zhVaN3SHuzuSobwZlomVcH+fytdm8+e9lIT Cn6bhNTFvIc1HgCF5BzldNjNtcNGtPuxtC2EDVR3a+WX6zgEeVcbTqoXyLR0MtUg2y9U WS/zLJZyk0AnnHMZ8rw3pFHzaNy+qigq6EahcS5YIQQ5M7vg9Nkz2WIU/RgauPHLXdS8 Hz1PApultRwxeHZBpZAJhrMUV3mALVeUA2IgO5TUMRBYfMNLBh6aF8RmFgSPn36/KeMV Vg/lH9HCJWLU+lfXj48cY3eztLRENkpe7MM04EAGqvAQBVUWMc+yiWgz0R+GHAsfjXH6 G2yQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kony3I7pT3ge/BrBmcp80sLx1SnuQ6YLqkQTfLus+WkDzmv0hsr wWUISR6HB2kJxAhr7p0dmZKDJaEjzItMVZ9+fzU=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXsni6eGZZisIJQeU8wXlnYxO1wJDq66hhE1cvC+8yiKCsZZFF41qlY0IUOgLfbeLmEJKOXsJzGl6cbgwA5wB8U=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1d8:b0:661:cac2:79ca with SMTP id r24-20020a05683001d800b00661cac279camr3576523ota.93.1673024363240; Fri, 06 Jan 2023 08:59:23 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <3c3230f3783b4ec9a8a9e3bb87cc2a8d@huawei.com> <08C49067-DB4C-41AB-A6F3-B96BDBE0A4BC@yahoo.co.uk> <CAKr6gn0tFXEV-h7LH1_Ts5iQRw_mGEi=TqS7hsyK-SqDFmmY-A@mail.gmail.com> <C09B3D18-2871-491F-B76C-630A2DCA439A@gmail.com> <EFCEFAA6-3638-4CE0-91DD-3E38FE00DF29@gmail.com> <1F71EB99-3657-4A20-8B28-2AFB743A9762@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <1F71EB99-3657-4A20-8B28-2AFB743A9762@gmail.com>
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 11:59:11 -0500
Message-ID: <CAMm+LwgCxHJYWtv+4ZQdr0-MbSE3qXg6wrT=DZLS=X9pKqpMSg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>, Lloyd W <lloyd.wood=40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>, pearg@irtf.org, hrpc@irtf.org, John Mattsson <john.mattsson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, saag <saag@ietf.org>, Antoine FRESSANCOURT <antoine.fressancourt=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000df246405f19b56d2"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pearg/1kBdS-yE4Qp_xVLVoXC6hvNElws>
Subject: Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023), is IETF keeping its promises?
X-BeenThere: pearg@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: Privacy Enhancements and Assessment Proposed RG <pearg.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/options/pearg>, <mailto:pearg-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/pearg/>
List-Post: <mailto:pearg@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:pearg-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/pearg>, <mailto:pearg-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 16:59:29 -0000
On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 11:29 AM Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote: > I suppose that you have to question whether IP is the ideal base for > multicast? > > Our networks are no longer mono-protocol and multicast tends to be domain > specific. > > Many of the original uses for multicast are now dominated by unicast > packet duplication with edge computing making this less of a bandwidth hog, > so it is not clear what the long term future of multicast is. > > - Stewart > What protocols are in widespread use besides IPv4 and IPv6? Are Akamai and the like really rolling their own network protocols to squeeze the nth degree of performance out of their networks? I suspect the biggest barrier for deployment of multicast is the steep learning curve for implementers. I have no idea how I would go about getting a multicast address group assigned, no idea how I would set up a test stand, etc. etc. And the information is certainly not easily accessible. Then as mentioned earlier, multicast is only giving me a limited UDP functionality that is essentially unidirectional. I have to do my own work at transport and above and on top of that, the security model is changed. And after all that, the return on multicast is only going to be there if I have a broadcast application with at least a hundred people watching a stream on a regular basis. Anything that does multicast is going to end up involving some sort of voodoo at the point where one packet goes in and multiple packets go out. That voodoo is not going to be a function of the router core, it is going to be something higher level poking that core. So given modern hardware, does it really make such a big difference if that voodoo is happening in a processor that is in the router chassis itself or in another box in the same rack connected by a nice fat pipe?
- [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023), is… John Mattsson
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Christopher Wood
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Dave Taht
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Adrian Gropper
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Antoine FRESSANCOURT
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Lloyd W
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … George Michaelson
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Dave Taht
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… John Mattsson
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Ted Hardie
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … John Mattsson
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Brad Chen
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Kyle Rose
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Antoine FRESSANCOURT
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Brad Chen
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Alan DeKok
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [EXT] Re: [saag] Ten years after Snow… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Alan DeKok
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dave Taht
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… bzs
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Brad Chen
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Laurence Lundblade
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Adrian Gropper
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dino Farinacci
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] [hrpc] Ten years after Snowden… Tony Rutkowski
- [Pearg] times square 15 sec delay new years Dave Taht
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Alec Muffett
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Alec Muffett
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Lloyd W
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Pearg] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023)… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Luigi Iannone
- Re: [Pearg] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 … Christian Huitema