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Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023), is IETF keeping its promises?

Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Mon, 09 January 2023 15:47 UTC

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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2023 10:46:52 -0500
Message-ID: <CAMm+Lwjj6WtpAT4UsY2ToRhE_qedV=OSYHm1+8nQApWMP7W=1Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot=40mnot.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, ietf@ietf.org, hrpc@irtf.org, pearg@irtf.org, saag <saag@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Pearg] [hrpc] [saag] Ten years after Snowden (2013 - 2023), is IETF keeping its promises?
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Moreover, a true ad hominem fallacy is an argument of the form 'Hitler was
a vegetarian, therefore vegetarianism leads to genocide'.

The argument 'Fred is a known liar, therefore we should ignore Fred's claim
to have turned lead into gold' is actually a very reasonable and valid one
because the fact that Fred is a liar has direct relevance to the evidence
being brought up for the claim in question.

I do find it interesting that folk who spend a great deal of time
opinionating about areas where the IETF lacks expertise and should
therefore be silent then go on to apply defective rhetoric and
epistemology. The Internet variant of the ad hominem fallacy is 'I lack
expertise in these matters, therefore you must also lack expertise and thus
lack standing to challenge the assertion I am making'.


On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 10:23 AM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

> Can you tell us what the ad hominem was, Vittorio? Ad hominem means an
> argument that attacks the person, as opposed to the person's argument.
> Mark's argument seems to have been very much about what you said, not about
> you. I don't see the part of his message where he even says anything at all
> about you as a person. Pointing out that you have not fully addressed what
> he said in a previous message is a response to your argument, not an attack
> on you as a person.
>
> On Mon, Jan 9, 2023 at 10:08 AM Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=
> 40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> > Il 09/01/2023 13:02 CET Mark Nottingham <mnot=40mnot.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> ha scritto:
>> >
>> >
>> > Vittorio,
>> >
>> > I’m on holiday, so my answer will be brief.
>> >
>> > You excerpted part of my message and used it to build a straw man. I’ll
>> happily engage in discussion if you reply to the whole message.
>>
>> And you just ignored my point and turned the thread into an ad hominem
>> attack.
>>
>> So, for the sake of not spamming four separate lists with this kind of
>> stuff any further, I'm out of this discussion.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> --
>> Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
>> vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com
>> Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> hrpc mailing list
>> hrpc@irtf.org
>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc
>>
>

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