[rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for packets from non-upgraded networks
Robin Whittle <rw@firstpr.com.au> Mon, 08 March 2010 18:15 UTC
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Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:15:01 +1100
From: Robin Whittle <rw@firstpr.com.au>
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Subject: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for packets from non-upgraded networks
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Hi Fred, In "Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next", you wrote: > Hi Robin, > > About IRON-RANGER below: ... >> That leaves four CES architectures: >> >> IRON-RANGER >> Ivip >> LISP >> TIDR >> >> TIDR can't solve the routing scaling problem because its "mapping" is >> almost identical to advertising individual end-user network prefixes >> in the DFZ. I have argued that IRON-RANGER is not yet sufficiently >> developed to understand its security and scaling challenges - and > > The points on security and scaling have been addressed > in my latest rebuttal; see: > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg06158.html I don't understand the mechanisms by which potentially very large numbers of IRON routers repeatedly and continually register with potentially multiple VP routers. These IRON routers could be anywhere and so could the VP routers. In that message, the most I can discern about this mechanism is: IRON routers lease portions of their VPs as Provider Independent (PI) prefixes for customer equipment (CEs), thereby creating a sustaining business model. CEs that lease PI prefixes propagate address mapping(s) throughout their attached RANGER networks and up to VP-owning IRON router(s) through periodic transmission of "bubbles" with authenticating and PI prefix information. Routers in RANGER networks and IRON routers that receive and forward the bubbles securely install PI prefixes in their FIBs, but do not inject them into the RIB. I have a rough idea of what you are trying to achieve with this mechanism, but I have no idea what the mechanism is - "bubbles" doesn't give me any understanding of exactly how the IRON routers would do this securely. Only when I understand exactly how they would do this could I estimate the scaling and security problems which are no-doubt involved. >> there's no apparent method of supporting packets sent from >> non-upgraded networks. > > Non-upgraded IPv4 networks will continue to work as they > always have. Do you mean non-upgraded IPv6 networks? I mean when you start installing IRON routers, these will collect packets addressed to "edge" addresses (or whatever the new subset of "EID" space is called in I-R) from the ISP networks they are installed in. Packets sent by hosts in those networks will be handled according to I-R principles and the recipient networks of those packets will get the benefits (portability, multihoming and inbound TE) for those packets. But what of packets sent from hosts without IRON routers? AFAIK, there's no equivalent in I-R to Ivip's DITRs or LISP's PTRs. > Assuming the latter, let's consider that today we have > two separate BGP instances - the IPv4 BGP instance and > the IPv6 BGP instance. The IPv6 BGP instance carries a > set of IPv6 prefixes (e.g., 2001:: derivatives) that are > routed in the IPv6 Internet in the "traditional" sense. > What IRON-RANGER is doing is essentially creating a > *third* BGP instance - one that carries a new set of > IPv6 Virtual Prefixes (VPs) that are distinct from the > prefixes carried in the traditional IPv6 BGP instance. > > Due to routing scaling issues, IRON-RANGER expects that > growth of this new third BGP instance will flourish while > growth of the traditional IPv6 BGP instance will level > off. In order to support what I think you mean by > non-upgraded networks then, it only requires that IPv6 > routers connected to the IRON also participate in the > traditional IPv6 BGP instance. For that matter, not all > IRON routers need to participate, but at least some must. > >> As far as I know, there have been no >> substantial counter-arguments to these critiques. > > Do the above points address your concerns? It is 5AM here, and I can't clearly translate what you wrote into an answer to the concern I mentioned above. But that doesn't mean it doesn't address it. > Hmm, maybe these two IPv6 BGP instances I alluded to don't > even need to be kept separate - as long as Virtual Prefixes > can be kept distinct from non-virtual ones. This I think is > the key point, and would greatly reduce the complexity. I am definitely not going to think about this until I get some sleep! - Robin
- [rrg] FW: I-D Action:draft-irtf-rrg-recommendatio… Tony Li
- [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] FW: I-D Action:draft-irtf-rrg-recommend… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Tony Li
- Re: [rrg] FW: I-D Action:draft-irtf-rrg-recommend… Tony Li
- Re: [rrg] FW: I-D Action:draft-irtf-rrg-recommend… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] FW: I-D Action:draft-irtf-rrg-recommend… Tony Li
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Tony Li
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Tony Li
- [rrg] Why won't supporters of Loc/ID Separation (… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Why won't supporters of Loc/ID Separati… Tony Li
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Tony Li
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Why won't supporters of Loc/ID Separati… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Russ White
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Templin, Fred L
- [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for pac… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Tony Li
- Re: [rrg] Why won't supporters of Loc/ID Separati… Tony Li
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Scott Brim
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Tony Li
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Scott Brim
- Re: [rrg] Why won't supporters of Loc/ID Separati… Scott Brim
- Re: [rrg] Why won't supporters of Loc/ID Separati… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] Why won't supporters of Loc/ID Separati… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] Recommendation and what happens next Scott Brim
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] IRON-RANGER scalability and support for… Templin, Fred L
- [rrg] Comments on 'draft-whittle-ivip-arch' Templin, Fred L
- Re: [rrg] Comments on 'draft-whittle-ivip-arch' Robin Whittle
- Re: [rrg] Comments on 'draft-whittle-ivip-arch' Robin Whittle